Scripture regarding praying to saints

[TankGirl]

I had a brief conversation with bil yesterday regarding "great cloud of witnesses". I said that this is the only passage of scripture I have seen used to support the notion of praying to saints.

As someone who doesn't agree with praying to saints, I am interested in finding out which scriptures people who do believe in this practice feel supports their position.

NB I do not want to debate - I am convinced of my position, but not interested in arguing the point with anyone (there are enough threadshere doing that already!

Neither do I want arguments from Tradition or logic. I am simply looking for cites of verses which people here feel point to the idea of praying to saints.

Many thanks.

 

[Rhamiel]

Rev. 8:3

And another angel came and stood over the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should add it unto the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

it is not saints in heaven but it is a being offering up your prayers to God
in the Bible the word saint is often used to refer to those who are still alive, but that is because the epistles are letters addressing the church, or saints, in differant cities. Now this Bible verse does not say all the saints on earth but all the saints, this could imply the saints in heaven as well

 

[TankGirl]

Rev. 8:3
it is not saints in heaven but it is a being offering up your prayers to God
in the Bible the word saint is often used to refer to those who are still alive, but that is because the epistles are letters addressing the church, or saints, in differant cities. Now this Bible verse does not say all the saints on earth but all the saints, this could imply the saints in heaven as well

Thank you for replying

 

[Rhamiel]

lol, thanks for asking a question rather then just calling me an idol worshiper.

kiddies, take notice of the nice lady, this is how you disagree and even debate with another person and not look like a rude %$@!&

 

[Rhamiel]

I will also say the Bible verse I mentioned might point to saints praying for us and it does show angels bringing our prayers to God, but is not really a firm passage to base theology on, if it was not for Church Tradition I would think this was a flimsy argument on my part

 

[TankGirl]

lol, thanks for asking a question rather then just calling me an idol worshiper.

kiddies, take notice of the nice lady, this is how you disagree and even debate with another person and not look like a rude %$@!&

Thank you for the kind welcome!

Anyone else care to join in?

 

[mont974x4]

subscribing because I'm hopeful one of the proponents of this act will come along actually post some solid support for it.

 

[TankGirl]

subscribing because I'm hopeful one of the proponents of this act will come along actually post some solid support for it.

I'm glad you're here (and I'm hoping the same), but please be kind. I'm after understanding here, not debate. I have no intention of arguing any points with anyone who posts, whatever my feelings on the matter. I hope, this way, people will feel comfortable posting their beliefs without feeling attacked or belittled.

Thank you.

 

[mont974x4]

I understood your intention and that is why I didn't debate...even tho it was oh so hard not to. LOL

God bless
Jay

 

[jckstraw72]

Neither do I want arguments from Tradition or logic. I am simply looking for cites of verses which people here feel point to the idea of praying to saints.

well various verses in Revelation show those in Heaven presenting prayers to God. its kinda common sense then to ask them to pray for us. just like i know my mom prays for me, but i might specifically ask her to pray for me at times.

also we accept 2 Maccabees as canonical which specifically shows the Priest Onias and Jeremiah (both deceased) praying for the Maccabees.

 

[Catholic Christian]

I had a brief conversation with bil yesterday regarding "great cloud of witnesses". I said that this is the only passage of scripture I have seen used to support the notion of praying to saints..

You want lots of scripture? Go here:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[Catholic Christian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jNEuQ9rSUI

 

[HisKid1973]

Anyone know why the NT church didn't practice it ?....Why they didn't give and example?

 

[Rhamiel]

not a lot of martyrs at that time, you have to think the NT was written early on

 

[NoDoubt]

I had a brief conversation with bil yesterday regarding "great cloud of witnesses". I said that this is the only passage of scripture I have seen used to support the notion of praying to saints.

As someone who doesn't agree with praying to saints, I am interested in finding out which scriptures people who do believe in this practice feel supports their position.

NB I do not want to debate - I am convinced of my position, but not interested in arguing the point with anyone (there are enough threadshere doing that already!

Neither do I want arguments from Tradition or logic. I am simply looking for cites of verses which people here feel point to the idea of praying to saints.

Many thanks.

Hello TankGirl,



Praying to the Saints: Alleged Proof Texts


Regarding your question, In Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Psalm 148:1-2).

In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Revelation 5:8). Also we read that " another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand." (Revelation 8:3,4). We see that those in heaven, angels and humans, pray for us.

The above quotations are the closest attempts to give biblical support to the tradition of invoking dead saints. However, if we carefully look at those scriptures, we quickly discover that they do not support this practice at all.

The psalmist expresses his desire that the angels and all creation praise the Lord:

Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens; praise Him in the heights! Praise Him, all His angels; praise Him, all His hosts! Praise Him, sun and moon; praise Him, all you stars of light! Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, and you waters above the heavens! (Psalms 148:1-4).

The psalmist addresses the heavens, the waters, the beasts, the birds, the fire and the snow, and all the people of the earth to praise God. Are we to conclude that this psalm teaches us to invoke the angels? We might as well say that we should be praying to the sun and the moon and the stars!

In the book of Revelation we read about the saints (Christians) on earth praying to God. The incense that is offered to God by the angel and the elders symbolizes their prayers.

It must be emphasized that the incense represents the prayers of the saints – that is, the prayers of Christians on earth. Twice we are told that the incense is 'the prayers of the saints.' Therefore the incense does not represent the intercessory prayers of the angel or the elders in heaven.

Moreover, these prayers were addressed to God, and not to the elders in heaven or to the angel, for the incense ascended up before God. The saints on earth were praying to God; they were not asking the angels or saints in heaven to pray for them.

Clearly these passages do not teach us to pray to departed saints or angels, nor that they are interceding for us. If anyone desires to learn from the Bible about prayer, he would be in no doubt to whom he should address his prayers.

From the dawn of human existence, when men begun to call upon the name of the Lord (Genesis 4:26), to the last prayer recorded in the Bible (Revelation 22:20), the consistent example of all God’s people was to address their prayers to the Lord. Jesus teaches us by His example to pray to God (Luke 6:12). Jesus also teaches us to address our prayers to 'our Father in heaven.' The apostles and the disciples prayed to the Lord. We are taught to pray 'for' (not 'to') all saints, that is, we should pray for the needs of the living Christians on earth (Ephesians 6:18).

Communication with the dead is the practice of pagan religions and the occult, and not the Judeo-Christian faith as recorded in the Bible. The prophet Isaiah tells us:

And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Whoever teaches that we should "seek the dead on behalf of the living" is in darkness and degrades the Christian faith to the level of the occult and superstition.

Hope this helped you

 

[E.C.]

Anyone know why the NT church didn't practice it ?....Why they didn't give and example?

See the martyrdom of St. Ignatius of Antioch. Third (or fourth) bishop of the Church in Antioch after St. Peter.

He was martyred in the Roman Colosseum via hungry lions. The Christians in the area recovered his remains and placed them on their altar in the catacombs. They also prayed over the relics.

Now one would think that if they did not hold him in some regard than they would not only have let the remains rot in the Colosseum, but would have not recorded his martyrdom.

 

[E.C.]

In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Revelation 5:8). Also we read that " another angel, having a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand." (Revelation 8:3,4). We see that those in heaven, angels and humans, pray for us.

The above quotations are the closest attempts to give biblical support to the tradition of invoking dead saints. However, if we carefully look at those scriptures, we quickly discover that they do not support this practice at all.

How can the verse not support, when you just stated that it reads that angels and humans are in heaven praying for us?
Are the saints not human?

The Orthodox prayer for one's saint reads as follows: "Pray unto God for me, O Holy Saint <insert name>, well-pleasing to God: for I turn unto thee, who art the speedy helper and intercessor for my soul." This particular wordage is from a prayer book made by the Antiochian Archdiocese of America and the prayer book itself was published in the 1950's.
No where in this prayer does it read "Saint <insert name> help me and do something for me." This prayer is just asking one's saint, who is in heaven, to pray to God for them. "Hey man, can ya pray for me?" would be this prayer in everyday speak.

Communication with the dead is the practice of pagan religions and the occult, and not the Judeo-Christian faith as recorded in the Bible. The prophet Isaiah tells us:

The saints are not dead, they are just not with us.
To say they are dead is to say there is no eternal life. Which would be to say that some Atheists are right and Christianity is all a sham.

Isaiah is condemning those that contacted the dead for the purposes of exploiting information because the means in which that is done is of the evil one and is to contact the body.

The saints are in heaven. Their bodies are on earth. We do not pray asking the body for help, but ask for them to help since they are with God.

Questions:
What do you make of Hebrews 12:23 when St. Paul speaks of those "registered in heaven"? What do you make of the race St. Paul speaks of in Hebrews 12:1? Have the saints in heaven not finished the race and thus part of the "cloud of witnesses"?

 

[NoDoubt]

I'm after understanding here, not debate. I have no intention of arguing any points with anyone who posts, whatever my feelings on the matter. I hope, this way, people will feel comfortable posting their beliefs without feeling attacked or belittled.

Thank you.

 

[namericanboy]

I have no problems believing they observe what's going on.They have direct access and don't even have to pray. The problem comes how do we know they here the prayers directed towards them..We are not told they have the attributes of God or are we given the example to pray to them.There would have been plenty of those who died in Christ before Revelation was written to have given and example..Steven would have been the best one..This has to be based on an assumption of man...

 

[E.C.]

I have no problems believing they observe what's going on.They have direct access and don't even have to pray. The problem comes how do we know they here the prayers directed towards them..We are not told they have the attributes of God or are we given the example to pray to them.There would have been plenty of those who died in Christ before Revelation was written to have given and example..Steven would have been the best one..This has to be based on an assumption of man...

Are you familiar with African oral tradition? Most of the remote tribes in Africa do not (or did not) have an alphabet and therefore passed all their history, tales, fables, myths and traditions on via word of mouth generation to generation.

The same concept applies here: something being passed down generation to generation. Maybe not solely word of mouth, but by practice.

How do we know God hears us? How do we know that God is not like Bruce in "Bruce Almighty" and simply ignores prayers?
Faith. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Hebrews 11:1. We can not physically see God sitting at a desk sorting through prayers with an in/out box, but we have faith that He does (or whatever His system may be, we know that He hears us).

Since many things, like veneration of saints, were lived, they were not always recorded. Why record something that all are practicing and living? It would by like making a how-to manual on how to breath!

The saints have finished the race, they are in Communion with God. They have achieved theosis which, for simplicity sake, means they have been made free of stuff and are now one with God. They are united with God, they are right up there with front row tickets, so to say (I think the West calls this "sanctification or something like that. Never liked those -tion words).

St. Stephen is among the saints. He is one of many in the crowd. Since he is with God, united with Him and so forth, he can hear the prayers of those on this earth such as yourself and I. Why, since he is united with God and in that eternal life spot of existence we hear so much about, shouldn't he be able to pray for us? If it were not praying for those on this earth than what else would he (St. Stephen) do? Simply put, the question of if saints have attributes of God or whathaveyou is not answered explicitly in the Bible because there probably was no reason to state it. As said, it would have been like telling someone how to breath. The main reason why we have our Bible canon and Nicene Creed is because there was a need for it.

Sorry if this does not answer your question well enough. It's almost late where I'm at.