Scripture and Creation.

Doubting Thomas II · Jan 20, 2003

Hector, LiveFreeOrDie asked you for an example of Talkorigins resorting to rumor. I repeat his request. Let's have one example of what you're referring to. I think it's remarkable that a person who freely cribs from Kent Hovind without ever bothering to back up any of the arguments culled from that website would dare lecture anyone about the use of online resources in the evo/creationism debate.

"The joy of thinking for yourself" indeed!

Hector Medina · Jan 20, 2003

OK,

On Talk Origins they carry info like:

The similarity of Embryos beteween Humans and Animals.
SORRY -that is a FRAUD!
The German/Austrian(I forgot)Haekel came released this chart in about 1868 because they still could'nt find any evidence for Darwin's theory(which they stilll don't) so he MADE THIS UP DISHOINESTLY TO PROMOTE THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION and Haekel busted was improsined in 1876ish.
Talk Origins also probably has the Geologic Column which is cicular reasoning -GOES NOWHERE!
Same thing w/ Radiometric dating and all that pesudo-science that schools use....

LIES,LIES,LIES!

You wanted an exmaple you got it..........

In Christ,

Hector

JohnR7 · Jan 20, 2003

Originally posted by Douglaangu
John, in the past on this board, havn't you refused to admit your mistakes and errors, even when shown many, many times that you were wrong?

Could this not be considered prideful behavior?

You are correct, if we were to make a mistake or a error we do not admit to it. People have enough ammunition they use against us already, we do not help them by giving them more to use against us. Just like the pastor at my church does not give interviews to reporters anymore. They have to talk to the general manager. Far to often the reporters are just trying to dig up some sort of dirt to try and make the ministry look bad. They usually can not find anything, so when something does happen it is usually front page stuff. Like the women who got mad at one of the ushers and started to hit him with an umbrella and they escorted her out of the building.  That was front page stuff for the newspaper.

People are getting healed, God is performing miracles. Drug addicts are being rescued, saved, healed & delivered from drinking and drugs. But the newspapers want to talk about a little old lady hitting the usher with her umbrella. It is just the devil trying to keep people in bondage. He does not want people to know they can be set free from whatever problems they are having.

JohnR7 · Jan 20, 2003

Originally posted by Freodin
So why is it that the continuation of the Ego is the single most important thing for Christians?

What Christians is that? Our job is to honor and to glorify the Father. We are to give a witness and a testimony as to what He is doing in this world. The devil has lots of people talking about his dirty work. But not many people want to talk about what God is going in this world, to rescue, save, heal and to deliver people from sin, sickness and all forms of bondage.

We are to die to self, so Christ can live in us. We are to put off the old rags we were wearing and put on brand new garments.

Galatians 5:19-24  Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, [20] idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, [21] envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. [24] And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Where do you find any ego in the fruits of the Holy Ghost?

Doubting Thomas · Jan 20, 2003

I was hoping you would do a bit better than that, Hector. If you actually took the time to read talkorigins, you would know where they stand on the Haeckel recapitulation non-issue:

www.talkorigins.org/faqs/wells/#haeckel-embryo

www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/feb99.html

www.talkorigins.org/origins/feedback/mar02.html

As for the geological column, since I have no reason to believe that you have ever done any research on the subject that goes beyond parroting Hovind's lies and mistakes, I refer you to the following:

www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-gc.html

Your statement about radiometric dating techniques is simply hogwash. I submit that you don't understand the first thing about the subject. Please prove me wrong.

Also, if you are going to accuse the scientific community of lying, please provide evidence. Otherwise, I will be expecting you to recant your claim.

The thing about you, Hector, is that you periodically repeat the same erroneous claims via Hovind, no matter how many times people on these boards (including other Christians) point out his many errors and his evident disregard for the truth. As I see it, you are either grossly misinformed or you are bearing false witness.

Which is it?

Still waiting for a valid example of talkorigins using rumor or misinformation to deliberately mislead its readers.

JohnR7 · Jan 20, 2003

Originally posted by webboffin
JohnR7, I think that is a bit unrealistic in the real world.

We renounce our citizenship in the real world, when we become a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Just like my wife says: "You can take the Filipino out of the Philippines, but you can not take the Philippines out of the Filipino.

We may not be in the Kingdom of Heaven yet, but the Kingdom of Heaven is still inside of us.

If I were to travel to Hong Kong, I may not be in American anymore. But I would still be an American. My citizenship papers and whatever rights I have as a citizen is American.

JohnR7 · Jan 20, 2003

Originally posted by sulphur
To R7,you have no pride in your work or your children???

Proverbs 11:2 When pride cometh, then cometh shame: but with the lowly is wisdom.

Genesis 1:10 God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:12 God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:18 God saw that it was good.

Pride is a feeling. Along with pride comes shame. We do not live by feelings, we live by faith.

You have to choose one or the other, you can not walk and live in feeling and in faith both at the same time. Also we are to be steadfast and consistant. We can not go back and forth. James tells us a double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

 

 

 

JohnR7 · Jan 20, 2003

Originally posted by Douglaangu
Like being too proud to admit when you're wrong?

Is that your judgement of yourself, that your to proud to admit when your wrong?

As Pogo the Possum use to say: "We have met the enemy and he is us".

http://www.incommunion.org/resources/pogo.asp

Freodin · Jan 20, 2003

Originally posted by JohnR7
What Christians is that? Our job is to honor and to glorify the Father. We are to give a witness and a testimony as to what He is doing in this world. The devil has lots of people talking about his dirty work. But not many people want to talk about what God is going in this world, to rescue, save, heal and to deliver people from sin, sickness and all forms of bondage.

We are to die to self, so Christ can live in us. We are to put off the old rags we were wearing and put on brand new garments.

Galatians 5:19-24  Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, [20] idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, [21] envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. [24] And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Where do you find any ego in the fruits of the Holy Ghost?

Ah, so you distinguish between a good ego and an evil ego?

"We are to die to self..." you said, but at the same time you talk about "put on brand new garments".

It is your self - your ego - that is going to have eternal life, isn´t it? It is you who wants to be saved, to be freed from death - the enemy, as you called it.
Always and everywhere, it is about the continuation of your self.

Once, there was a thread here, where someones asked what people were willing to give up in order to save another soul. It got all kinds of answers up to their own life - all the things that "true Christians" know are worthless.
But when I asked whether people were willing to give up their salvation, their eternal life, in order to save someone, no-one could even understand my question. The thought of self-preservation is so deeply set in the Christian mind that it is almost impossible to even ponder this thought.

JohnR7 · Jan 20, 2003

Originally posted by Freodin
Ah, so you distinguish between a good ego and an evil ego? 

Is that the best you can do? You do not seem to be able to distinguish between spirit and flesh.

It is your self - your ego - that is going to have eternal life, isn´t it?

Our old person, our old self, along with ego and feeling have to die so that we can become a new person, a new creation in Christ. The fallen man reflects satan. The new man reflects God.

I asked whether people were willing to give up their salvation

Paul in the Bible said he would have been willing to do that. It just shows how much of the greatness of God that he had in him, that his love for the Jewish people went that far.

Romans 9:3
    For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

 

Hector Medina · Jan 20, 2003

JohnR7,

Could you please help me out here in this debate w/ Doubting Thomas?
I really don't know very much through personal rescearch and I believe you do.

God Bless You,

Hector Medina

Freodin · Jan 20, 2003

Originally posted by JohnR7
Is that the best you can do? You do not seem to be able to distinguish between spirit and flesh.

And if I did, what would it matter? Is the flesh not "you"?

Our old person, our old self, along with ego and feeling have to die so that we can become a new person, a new creation in Christ. The fallen man reflects satan. The new man reflects God.

Now you are talking about a new person. In what regard is this "new person" "you". How can "you" get eternal life, when "you" must die?

Paul in the Bible said he would have been willing to do that. It just shows how much of the greatness of God that he had in him, that his love for the Jewish people went that far.

Romans 9:3
    For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

How nice of Paul. Would you be willing to do the same?

webboffin · Jan 22, 2003

How many of us don't fall into that catagory?
But yes there are some people and Christians that try to do away with such pride and ego. But for a Christian who is very self aware of such short comings do pray for God's forgiveness and try best to avoid doing so. Not 100% all but there are some.

webboffin · Jan 22, 2003

And JohnR7, I think you have somethings a little mixed up there.
I would just stick the the biblical view of pride and ego not your own.

sulphur · Jan 22, 2003

R7 if you did not have pride inyour work you must have a miserable job. If you do not tell your children you are proud of them for doing the right thing how do they learn?

Micaiah · Jan 26, 2003

Here is an account of day 2 of creation given in Scripture.

6Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." 7Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

These are the guidelines initially requested for this thread. The focus here is on your interpretation of the plain meaning of these verses, without reference to any scientific theories you may hold. Feel free to refer to other passages in the chapter to clarify the meaning of the verses. There should however be a direct connect between the two passages. For example, Lucaspa used the later reference to the creation of the sun to help explain the creative work of the first day.

Assuming this English text accurately reflects Scripture, give a summary of the clear assertions of these verses in your own words? Focus on the physical aspects of creation that have scientific implications. Christian and athiest responses are welcome. Feel free to point out what you believe are the errors or inconsistencies of other peoples comments.

For the second day of Creation, my summary is as follows:

1. God created a firmament (expanse) that divided the waters that were above and below the expanse.

2. God called the expanse Heaven.

3. The events took place on day 2 of creation.

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