Scripture alone regarding confessing sins.

[mont974x4]

LOL I guess the boycott is still on? sort of?



Jay (who only heard of the boycott in another thread and really has no idea what's going on with that)

 

[E.C.]

Christianity isn't about a twenty subject web of theology, dear friend.....it's about trusting Christ to give you what is "necessary" in your walk. Him....not your effort, intellect, knowledge, or background.

What I mean is, going into the theology behind confession, one can see how it is connected with Orthodox Soteriology. As well as a few other things.

Like a spider web, it is all connected. However, this is not the thread for that discussion.

Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

This is what we are supposed to do. During the sacrement of Confession in the Orthodox Church, the priest represents the "other". He is a witness, a friend, a guide, an elder. Apart from the Confession - we also have the service of forgiveness, which is coming up next week, where everyone goes to everyone, prostrates and asks for forgiveness. The confession part is silent or spoken softly since that could get ugly.

I love Forgiveness Sunday.

 

[namericanboy]

You only do it once a year?

 

[E.C.]

You only do it once a year?

Forgiveness Sunday? Yes.

Since it is the first Sunday of Lent; which is the time of fasting, prayer and preparation for Pascha (Easter); why not start it on a good note with one's community?

 

[Kristos]

Hi Kristos friend,
Thanks for the insight...Question, does the father hear all the parishioners confessions, is he laden with that burden?

I know that there are some people who have had the same confessor since childhood and have stuck with them as a spiritual guide. But in general, I would say that a parish priest would rarely refuse to hear a confession. Again, I know of such a case - but I think this is rare. As with anything, there are those who just go through the motions, but for me the formality of it really forces me to look at myself honestly. Sometimes, even the best of us can have trouble seeing our sins - and these are the most dangerous. This is one area where a confessor/priest can be critical.

 

[namericanboy]

Forgiveness Sunday? Yes.

Since it is the first Sunday of Lent; which is the time of fasting, prayer and preparation for Pascha (Easter); why not start it on a good note with one's community?

But it should be present in the ongoing operation of the body..

 

[Kristos]

That service of forgiveness would be a neat thing to experience. I know I have experienced a great feeling of freedom when confiding in my bride some sin so we could face the issues together.


I only hope that the truth is being taught that such things are not required. Meaning, we need no special ceremony or earthly priest for repentence and confession.

Perhaps God does not need a ceremony. He can probably get by with His omni-everything-ness. But humans on the other hand are a tiresome lot, who are easily distracted, forgetful, arrogant, etc. Ceremony is the remedy, not the disease.

 

[Kristos]

But it should be present in the ongoing operation of the body..

I don't think you understood. The process of repentance can never stop, but we take a special day every year and make it a point, as an entire church, in a communal sense. This by no means that the rest of the year is happy go lucky - don't think about. Quite the contrary. The cycle of holy liturgies have a purpose, and purpose is always to draw us closer to God. As we prepare to enter to great fast, the church helps us prepare for the road ahead, and the Forgiveness Vespers is one of those ways.

 

[E.C.]

But it should be present in the ongoing operation of the body..

Do you know how long it takes for a full congregation of 100-200 persons to prostrate themselves? Clergy included? Quite a while.

Throughout our lives, we should forgive each other. However, Forgiveness Sunday is set aside so that we can start Lent off on the right foot. Everyone forgives everyone for any and all faults they may have caused each other.

Quite humbling.




Kristos put it well. Reps!

 

[namericanboy]

I guess I am not used to liturgical cycles..We just operate day by day in the ministry of the body..fasting/prayer for needs and direction. Communion/ breaking bread, foot washing all as the Lord leads..Every Sunday we have ministry time during the service for the operation of the gifts, laying on of hands, healing, repentance..You can go prostrate yourselves before the Lord make amends...We also take time to purify our hearts and make amends before we have communion..The more important time to be pure in heart before the Lord..We don't have "cycles"..Thanks for sharing and helping me understand what y'all do..

 

[Theophorus]

Hi Kristos friend,
Thanks for the insight...Question, does the father hear all the parishioners confessions, is he laden with that burden?

Yes it is a burden, that's one of the sacrifices he chooses. Not to demean the importance of "proclaiming the Gospel" which is the primary focus of all "ministers", a priest/pastor/etc should also minister to his flock. We see this now in some of the mega churches with various small groups and internal help with things like substance abuse, divorce and whatnot.

The main focal point is not the priest but the one confessing. Sometimes, we do not or can not see outside of our box. We fail to see when we are at fault. A priest dedicated to virtue sometimes helps, just as Paul helped point out the "un-confessed" sins of the Corinthians.

Also, in Orthodoxy we confess our sins to a priest, but we also have spiritual fathers. Often they are our priest but not always. They do not need be a priest. We discuss spiritual matters with them, and then go to confession guided by their instruction.

In my case, my spiritual father is not my parish priest. I confess and seek his advice. I chose him and he does have many many burdens. But those burdens are largely spiritual. He has to pray for me and remember me in his prayers.

And that is the profession of a confessor/priest; Prayer. The parish priest prays a lot even if it were only in services (we have a lot, and that's what they are, prayers), the monastic also chooses a life of prayer.

God accepts those prayers. We call people of prayer, spiritual athletes/warriors.

It is a burden they bear for all of us. It is a manifestation of grace.

 

[Catholic Christian]

Terry in your post below your cut and paste does NOT address one of the main points of my OP... What are your thoughts?

I believe the thrust of your post was: "..what saith scripture about confession to others".

And I believe there were quite a few scripture quotes in my post. For those who didn't read it, here it is:

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=44005554&postcount=17

 

[Theophorus]

I guess I am not used to liturgical cycles..We just operate day by day in the ministry of the body..fasting/prayer for needs and direction. Communion/ breaking bread, foot washing all as the Lord leads..Every Sunday we have ministry time during the service for the operation of the gifts, laying on of hands, healing, repentance..You can go prostrate yourselves before the Lord make amends...We also take time to purify our hearts and make amends before we have communion..The more important time to be pure in heart before the Lord..We don't have "cycles"..Thanks for sharing and helping me understand what y'all do..

We see time differently maybe. For example at Christmas we proclaim "Christ is born, glorify Him" instead of Christ was born. Same with Pascha/easter, we say "Christ is risen" not "He arose".

We see ourselves in time but as part of the body of Christ, being outside of it as well. The "liturgical cycle" not only breaks down the year, but even the days of the week and then even the hours of the day.

So we take "time" and make it center around Christ. We fast on certain days because of Christ. We pray certain things during the day revolving around the life of Christ, and we feast/fast during the year, all of it centered around Christ.

Maybe that will help.

 

[E.C.]

I guess I am not used to liturgical cycles..We just operate day by day in the ministry of the body..fasting/prayer for needs and direction. Communion/ breaking bread, foot washing all as the Lord leads..Every Sunday we have ministry time during the service for the operation of the gifts, laying on of hands, healing, repentance..You can go prostrate yourselves before the Lord make amends...We also take time to purify our hearts and make amends before we have communion..The more important time to be pure in heart before the Lord..We don't have "cycles"..Thanks for sharing and helping me understand what y'all do..

No problem!

You asked, we answered.

 

[Albion]

I guess I am not used to liturgical cycles..We just operate day by day in the ministry of the body..fasting/prayer for needs and direction. Communion/ breaking bread, foot washing all as the Lord leads..Every Sunday we have ministry time during the service for the operation of the gifts, laying on of hands, healing, repentance..You can go prostrate yourselves before the Lord make amends...We also take time to purify our hearts and make amends before we have communion..The more important time to be pure in heart before the Lord..We don't have "cycles"..Thanks for sharing and helping me understand what y'all do..

All of that sits well with me. The issue at hand, as I understand it, is whether the references in the New Testament to the Apostles having the power to forgive sins or that we ought to confess our sins has any tangible continuation in the church services of our churches today. To my way of thinking, it ought to be present in some way or form, although that is not a criticism of anyone and certainly does not mean confessing to a priest in the Roman Catholic manner which was a later development in Church History.

 

[simonthezealot]

I believe the thrust of your post was: "..what saith scripture about confession to others".

And I believe there were quite a few scripture quotes in my post. For those who didn't read it, here it is:

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=44005554&postcount=17

Terry do you think its asking more of a priest than should be put on a person, that they carry the weight of the sins of a whole parish?
I'd like your opinion terry.

 

[FullyMT]

Terry do you think its asking more of a priest than should be put on a person, that they carry the weight of the sins of a whole parish?
I'd like your opinion terry.

See post 39...

 

[Kristos]

More on cycles - hope this isn't too off-topic. I've been think about this for the last week - ever since the question was asked - why don't we just do it ALL the time. So here I go. Note, these are my own poorly chosen words, so don't be too critical

Paul often describes Christianity as a race. Christians as athletes. We are trying to run a marathon called life. Not just life, but a christian life - satan makes it more like a steeplechase, with pits all around - so it's very difficult to even finish. The finish line, is of course supplied by grace and I by no means intend to say that we can save ourselves, but the struggles described by Paul are clear. So how do we struggle, how do we train to jump the pits as we run, how do we build our spiritual stamina and strength?

As an endurance athlete, I will tell you that it's impossible to train hard all the time. In order to achieve the highest level of stamina and strength it is necessary to train in cycles. First, an athlete must prepare to train - fundamentals, low intensity stuff - if you jump right into the hard stuff, you risk injury and without a good base you cannot build to a new level. So, preparation is just as important as the hard stuff. Next, a period of intense training. This is the hard stuff. This breaks the body down - stresses it farther than it's used to. This can't be done for too long, otherwise you fall into the trap of "over training" and this can take months to recover from. Last is a period of recovery - after all that hard work, you must let your body recover and achieve a new higher level of performance.

Now - the church fathers seemed to have known all these "modern" training techniques 2000 years ago, because they setup the liturgical cycles in a similar fashion - to help the "christian athlete" to achieve a higher level of spirituality (and by this I mean closer to God). Each year we go through a similar cycle of preparation, ascetical struggler and then recovery. (actually it's done 4 times a year, but I'm focusing mainly on the great 40 day fast, aka Lent). Before Lent there is a 4 week preparation period - very important - the fundamental are taught - humilty, repentance, forgiveness - without these, the hard stuff would be meaningless or even damaging. Then Lent - the hard stuff - ascetical fasting, prayer, tithing etc - we intend to overreach our comfort zone in the hope of drawing closer to God. Finally, recovery - no fasting is allowed the week after Easter. We celebrate and renew ourselves, and with God's grace bear His good fruit.

So, there you go - my take on why the church has liturgical cycles. Thanks for reading...

 

[jckstraw72]

Kristos that was an excellent explanation

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All of that sits well with me. The issue at hand, as I understand it, is whether the references in the New Testament to the Apostles having the power to forgive sins or that we ought to confess our sins has any tangible continuation in the church services of our churches today. To my way of thinking, it ought to be present in some way or form, although that is not a criticism of anyone and certainly does not mean confessing to a priest in the Roman Catholic manner which was a later development in Church History.

So the Orthodox also view the Confessions of sins according to catholicism a later addition? Peace