Scriptural Universalists agree that not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven

[drewcosten]

In another thread, someone quoted Matthew 7:21-23, pointing out that the Bible says not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven, and they seemed surprised by the fact that I agreed with them that not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven, even though I believe that everyone will experience salvation in the end.

What many Christians don’t seem to realize is that Universalists (at least concordant, scriptural Universalists) believe every word in the Bible, and so simply quoting a passage from Scripture that you assume teaches never-ending torment in hell isn’t going to be convincing to us, because we already agree with that passage (just as we agree with all passages of Scripture). It’s just that we interpret the so-called “proof text” passages that tend to be used to support the popular doctrine of never-ending torment differently than you do, and based on the context (of both the surrounding verses, as well as of Scripture as a whole), we don’t see them as meaning what you likely assume they mean.

Now I didn’t start this thread to debate Scriptural Universalism, since there are already more than enough threads on this forum doing that. But if anyone is curious to learn how someone could agree with the fact that people will be cast into everlasting hell fire, as well as cast into outer darkness, and will not enter the kingdom of heaven, and yet will still experience salvation, I did write a (long) study on the topic a couple years ago, which I’ll share with you here. You don’t have to read it, but it’s available for anyone who is curious how we interpret these passages, and why we don’t think they contradict Universalism at all: What the Bible really says about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation

 

[Maria Billingsley]

In another thread, someone quoted Matthew 7:21-23, pointing out that the Bible says not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven, and they seemed surprised by the fact that I agreed with them that not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven, even though I believe that everyone will experience salvation in the end.

What many Christians don’t seem to realize is that Universalists (at least concordant, scriptural Universalists) believe every word in the Bible, and so simply quoting a passage from Scripture that you assume teaches never-ending torment in hell isn’t going to be convincing to us, because we already agree with that passage (just as we agree with all passages of Scripture). It’s just that we interpret the so-called “proof text” passages that tend to be used to support the popular doctrine of never-ending torment differently than you do, and based on the context (of both the surrounding verses, as well as of Scripture as a whole), we don’t see them as meaning what you likely assume they mean.

Now I didn’t start this thread to debate Scriptural Universalism, since there are already more than enough threads on this forum doing that. But if anyone is curious to learn how someone could agree with the fact that people will be cast into everlasting hell fire, as well as cast into outer darkness, and will not enter the kingdom of heaven, and yet will still experience salvation, I did write a (long) study on the topic a couple years ago, which I’ll share with you here. You don’t have to read it, but it’s available for anyone who is curious how we interpret these passages, and why we don’t think they contradict Universalism at all: What the Bible really says about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation

Never heard of Scriptural Universalism only Universalism. Thanks for sharing though!
Blessings

 

[Der Alte]

In another thread, someone quoted Matthew 7:21-23, pointing out that the Bible says not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven, and they seemed surprised by the fact that I agreed with them that not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven, even though I believe that everyone will experience salvation in the end.
What many Christians don’t seem to realize is that Universalists (at least concordant, scriptural Universalists) believe every word in the Bible, and so simply quoting a passage from Scripture that you assume teaches never-ending torment in hell isn’t going to be convincing to us, because we already agree with that passage (just as we agree with all passages of Scripture). It’s just that we interpret the so-called “proof text” passages that tend to be used to support the popular doctrine of never-ending torment differently than you do, and based on the context (of both the surrounding verses, as well as of Scripture as a whole), we don’t see them as meaning what you likely assume they mean.
Now I didn’t start this thread to debate Scriptural Universalism, since there are already more than enough threads on this forum doing that. But if anyone is curious to learn how someone could agree with the fact that people will be cast into everlasting hell fire, as well as cast into outer darkness, and will not enter the kingdom of heaven, and yet will still experience salvation, I did write a (long) study on the topic a couple years ago, which I’ll share with you here. You don’t have to read it, but it’s available for anyone who is curious how we interpret these passages, and why we don’t think they contradict Universalism at all: What the Bible really says about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation

I skimmed your long article, it is about 125 pages too long.
Some people don't know the difference between verses quoted in-context in support of a particular point and an isolated out-of-context prooftext.
You referred to Matthew 7:21-23, above evidently intending to show that it is an out-of-context proof text. In your article you quoted John 17:3 and said IIRC that it was figurative for eternal life which would be correct since knowing does not equate to life..

John 17:3
(3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

I am retired X3 and have an abundance of free time, so I reviewed every occurrence of "aionios" in the N.T. I found 20 vss. where "aionios" is defined/described as eternal/ever lasting/for ever. The first half of that study.
“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [1%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “eternal” 42 times in the N.T.[52%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “everlasting” 25 times in the N.T.[34.7%]
“aionios” is never translated “age(s)”
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total] Jesus never used “aionios” to refer anything common, ordinary, mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In the following verses “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never mean eternity/eternal,” because a few times they refer to something which is not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Lk 1:33, John 6:58, 10:28, 3:15, 3:16, 5:29, 3:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:51

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei [Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, [Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal, no end.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[4] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[5] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite age,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” in second post

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means unto eternity.

 

[drewcosten]

I skimmed your long article, it is about 125 pages too long.
Some people don't know the difference between verses quoted in-context in support of a particular point and an isolated out-of-context prooftext.
You referred to Matthew 7:21-23, above evidently intending to show that it is an out-of-context proof text. In your article you quoted John 17:3 and said IIRC that it was figurative for eternal life which would be correct since knowing does not equate to life..

John 17:3​

(3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

I am retired X3 and have an abundance of free time, so I reviewed every occurrence of "aionios" in the N.T. I found 20 vss. where "aionios" is defined/described as eternal/ever lasting/for ever. The first half of that study.
“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [1%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “eternal” 42 times in the N.T.[52%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “everlasting” 25 times in the N.T.[34.7%]
“aionios” is never translated “age(s)”
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total] Jesus never used “aionios” to refer anything common, ordinary, mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In the following verses “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never mean eternity/eternal,” because a few times they refer to something which is not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines/describes “aionios” as “eternal.” Lk 1:33, John 6:58, 10:28, 3:15, 3:16, 5:29, 3:36, 4:14, 6:27, 8:51

[1] Luke 1:33​

(33) And he shall reign [basileusei [Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, [Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal, no end.

[2] John 6:58​

(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3]John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

[4] John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[5] John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[6]John 5:24​

(24) Verily, verily, [Amen, Amen] I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite age,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. ​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” in second post

[9]John 6:27​

(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51​

(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means unto eternity.

If you get the chance to sit down and read the whole thing (clicking the links for the scriptural references I don’t quote in the body of the article as you go), you’ll see why I insist that “eternal” and “everlasting” don’t literally mean “never ending” in most cases in the Bible. I do justify my interpretations and assertions in the article (which is as many pages as it is because it has to be, the reason for which is spelled out in the introduction).

 

[Der Alte]

If you get the chance to sit down and read the whole thing (clicking the links for the scriptural references I don’t quote in the body of the article as you go), you’ll see why I insist that “eternal” and “everlasting” don’t literally mean “never ending” in most cases in the Bible. I do justify my interpretations and assertions in the article (which is as many pages as it is because it has to be, the reason for which is spelled out in the introduction).

Strange, I post one page which you have not addressed but keep insisting that I read your 126 page article. You are incorrect a word cannot have two disparate unrelated meanings. Aionios, which is an adjective, cannot mean age, which is a noun. Aionios does mean eternal/everlasting/for ever as I have shown in my post. How do I explain the 3 times "aionios" is translated "world"? Easy, figurative, there are about 212 figures of speech used in the Bible in the 18th century a scholar E.V. Bullinger wrote a book by that title.
Here is a link to a prior post where I quote the entire definition of aionios from BDAG one of, if not, the most highly accredited Geek lexicon available. BDAG represents 120-160 years of combined scholarship.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Yes, not scripture. The interpreters of scripture. Like your anonymous 1904 committee that produced some translation. I prefer more proximate interpretations of scripture. Have you ever reviewed the credentials of the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB. Talk about anonymous...

www.christianforums.com

 

[drewcosten]

Strange, I post one page which you have not addressed but keep insisting that I read your 126 page article. You are incorrect a word cannot have two disparate unrelated meanings. Aionios, which is an adjective, cannot mean age, which is a noun. Aionios does mean eternal/everlasting/for ever as I have shown in my post. How do I explain the 3 times "aionios" is translated "world"? Easy, figurative, there are about 212 figures of speech used in the Bible in the 18th century a scholar E.V. Bullinger wrote a book by that title.
Here is a link to a prior post where I quote the entire definition of aionios from BDAG one of, if not, the most highly accredited Geek lexicon available. BDAG represents 120-160 years of combined scholarship.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Yes, not scripture. The interpreters of scripture. Like your anonymous 1904 committee that produced some translation. I prefer more proximate interpretations of scripture. Have you ever reviewed the credentials of the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB. Talk about anonymous...

www.christianforums.com

Have you read the introduction to the article yet? I explained there why I don’t discuss the topic with anyone who isn’t first familiar with the interpretations and arguments in the article.

The topic of the definitions of αἰών, αἰῶνας, and αἰώνιος are best explained by simply looking at the passages in question in a literal Bible translation, such as Young’s Literal Translation or the Concordant Literal Version, which clarify what those verses are actually talking about (and no, αἰώνιος doesn’t mean “age,” you’re right; instead, it’s an adjective that literally means “pertaining to an age or eon,” at least when used in the Bible, and the transliteration “eonian” as the CLV renders it clarifies it well). All that said, even if one translates the words as “eternal,” “everlasting,” or “for ever,” systematic theology proves that they then can’t be meant to be interpreted literally, as demonstrated in that article.

 

[Der Alte]

Have you read the introduction to the article yet? I explained there why I don’t discuss the topic with anyone who isn’t first familiar with the interpretations and arguments in the article.

The topic of the definitions of αἰών, αἰῶνας, and αἰώνιος are best explained by simply looking at the passages in question in a literal Bible translation, such as Young’s Literal Translation or the Concordant Literal Version, which clarify what those verses are actually talking about (and no, αἰώνιος doesn’t mean “age,” you’re right; instead, it’s an adjective that literally means “pertaining to an age or eon,” at least when used in the Bible, and the transliteration “eonian” as the CLV renders it clarifies it well). All that said, even if one translates the words as “eternal,” “everlasting,” or “for ever,” systematic theology proves that they then can’t be meant to be interpreted literally, as demonstrated in that article.

Hate to burst this self-congratulatory post but Robert Young who published the "literal translation" which bears his name was self-taught in Greek and Hebrew. It is only "literal" because Young said so, it is not endorsed by any educational body, that I am aware of. And again I see the false claim "“pertaining to an age or eon.” Evidently the Greek adjective "aionios" is so complicated that there is not one single word in English to translate it, so it takes six English words to translate it. I linked to a post which has the complete definition of aionios from the current edition of Bauer, Danker, Danger, Gingrich Greek lexicon. BDAG represents about 120 to 160 years of combined Greek scholarship. In the years since it was first published it has been reviewed by countless scholars and to my knowledge has never been found to contain any errors. The definition I posted lists 80+ ancient sources the scholars consulted in determining the correct meaning.
If as you claim, "systematic theology proves that they [aionios] then can’t be meant to be interpreted literally," then Jesus was a liar because as I clearly demonstrated in my previous post, Jesus, Himself, said that "aionios zoe" correctly translated "eternal life" means "shall not perish." And you have made no attempt whatsoever to show anything I posted is not correct.
Here is a link to the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible. Their language has been Greek for 2000 years +/- they always translate "aionios" as eternal/everlasting. Thus, your claim that "systematic theology proves that they [aion/aionios] then can’t be meant to be interpreted literally," is incorrect. John 3:15-16 is on page 236.

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org

 

[drewcosten]

If as you claim, "systematic theology proves that they [aionios] then can’t be meant to be interpreted literally," then Jesus was a liar because as I clearly demonstrated in my previous post, Jesus, Himself, said that "aionios zoe" correctly translated "eternal life" means "shall not perish." And you have made no attempt whatsoever to show anything I posted is not correct.

Jesus didn’t literally mean “never-ending” life when He said that, no. He was referring to something very specific, and it eventually ends, as I explained in the article. In addition, “shall not perish” doesn’t mean what most Christians assume it means either. I’m not here to argue with you, though. I’ve made my case in the article, and that’s the only argument I’ll make with anyone until they know why I say that, which will require reading the whole article carefully, from beginning to end. Nobody has to do so, but I won’t discuss this topic with anyone who hasn’t, or at least who isn’t already familiar with my interpretations as laid out in the article.

 

[Der Alte]

Jesus didn’t literally mean “never-ending” life when He said that, no. He was referring to something very specific, and it eventually ends, as I explained in the article. In addition, “shall not perish” doesn’t mean what most Christians assume it means either. I’m not here to argue with you, though. I’ve made my case in the article, and that’s the only argument I’ll make with anyone until they know why I say that, which will require reading the whole article carefully, from beginning to end. Nobody has to do so, but I won’t discuss this topic with anyone who hasn’t, or at least who isn’t already familiar with my interpretations as laid out in the article.

I see a lot of nonsense here. When Jesus said "aionios" life means "shall not perish" three times that is exactly what He meant and that is what His direct audience understood. Unlike us they did not have multiple electronic devices with which they could instantly pull up every verse on a topic. I studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level and as I said I have both the current Hebrew and Greek lexicons in my personal library, both hard back and digital. Therefore, I am not about to take lexical or grammatical advice from an anonymous person online, who as far as I know, has no formal education in the topic. We may not have a direct discussion but whenever I see what I understand to be false information I will challenge it.
Here again the link to the post with the BDAG definition of aionios.

Daily Christian Universalist Verses

Good. Now show me where Josiah said that? It ain't in the Bible. You are the one that is not careful, choosing questionable sources because they support your assumptions/presuppositions. Did you even bother to read the sources I posted, with links, which included archaeological evidence? There...

www.christianforums.com

 

[bling]

In another thread, someone quoted Matthew 7:21-23, pointing out that the Bible says not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven, and they seemed surprised by the fact that I agreed with them that not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven, even though I believe that everyone will experience salvation in the end.

What many Christians don’t seem to realize is that Universalists (at least concordant, scriptural Universalists) believe every word in the Bible, and so simply quoting a passage from Scripture that you assume teaches never-ending torment in hell isn’t going to be convincing to us, because we already agree with that passage (just as we agree with all passages of Scripture). It’s just that we interpret the so-called “proof text” passages that tend to be used to support the popular doctrine of never-ending torment differently than you do, and based on the context (of both the surrounding verses, as well as of Scripture as a whole), we don’t see them as meaning what you likely assume they mean.

Now I didn’t start this thread to debate Scriptural Universalism, since there are already more than enough threads on this forum doing that. But if anyone is curious to learn how someone could agree with the fact that people will be cast into everlasting hell fire, as well as cast into outer darkness, and will not enter the kingdom of heaven, and yet will still experience salvation, I did write a (long) study on the topic a couple years ago, which I’ll share with you here. You don’t have to read it, but it’s available for anyone who is curious how we interpret these passages, and why we don’t think they contradict Universalism at all: What the Bible really says about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation

Everything needs to start with the objective, what do you see as man's earthly objective, for I see, which does not allow for universalism:

The differences and issues begin with misunderstanding of the objective. Most Christians like: Man’s objective is to “bring glory to God” and have scripture references to support that objective, but a person can take any commandment or direction of God given in scripture and have Biblical support for call that command: “Man’s Objective”. We are certainly commanded to do that command, so why is it not man’s objective?

There are the two superior commands which all other commands are subordinate to and combined would be like: “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind, and energy.” That appears to be man’s “Mission Statement”. The huge problem with fulfilling that “Mission Statement” is the fact that the “Love” needed would have to be huge, way beyond anything man could develop, learn, deserve, earn, pay back, be instinctive to man, or somehow just be forced upon humans.

Thus, the reason you have free will, is because it is required for you to complete your earthly objective.

This messed up world which includes satan roaming around is not here for your pleasure, but to help each of us to become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

There are just somethings even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), like create another Christ, since Christ has always existed, the big impossibility for us is; create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also, if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type Love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)


God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest gift being having a Love like His.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.

God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force [Love] in all universes, since that force [Love] compels even God to do all He does) and thus the willing become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time.

This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or ever deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them, burden them, to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

Sin has purpose in helping willing humans in fulfilling their objective. God does not like it but allows it.

 

[drewcosten]

I see a lot of nonsense here. When Jesus said "aionios" life means "shall not perish" three times that is exactly what He meant and that is what His direct audience understood. Unlike us they did not have multiple electronic devices with which they could instantly pull up every verse on a topic. I studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level and as I said I have both the current Hebrew and Greek lexicons in my personal library, both hard back and digital. Therefore, I am not about to take lexical or grammatical advice from an anonymous person online, who as far as I know, has no formal education in the topic. We may not have a direct discussion but whenever I see what I understand to be false information I will challenge it.
Here again the link to the post with the BDAG definition of aionios.

Daily Christian Universalist Verses

Good. Now show me where Josiah said that? It ain't in the Bible. You are the one that is not careful, choosing questionable sources because they support your assumptions/presuppositions. Did you even bother to read the sources I posted, with links, which included archaeological evidence? There...

www.christianforums.com

Well, the article will be there for anyone who wants to learn the truth. Have a good day.

 

[Der Alte]

Well, the article will be there for anyone who wants to learn the truth. Have a good day.

Just because you "believe" something does not make it the truth. Man once believed the earth was flat.

 

[BurningBush84]

I guess I could see how all the wicked unbelievers were to receive salvation . They receive salvation through annihilation. If your annihilated you won't have to endure any punishment. You won't feel anything because you won't exist. If your annihilated you've been saved from God's wrath . It will be like eternal sleep. The wicked will be Resting In Peace for all eternity, saved from God's wrath.

 

[drewcosten]

Just because you "believe" something does not make it the truth. Man once believed the earth was flat.

I’m aware. That’s why people can read it and decide for themselves.

 

[drewcosten]

I guess I could see how all the wicked unbelievers were to receive salvation . They receive salvation through annihilation. If your annihilated you won't have to endure any punishment. You won't feel anything because you won't exist. If your annihilated you've been saved from God's wrath . It will be like eternal sleep. The wicked will be Resting In Peace for all eternity, saved from God's wrath.

Not quite what I meant by salvation in that article.

 

[Der Alte]

@drewcosten
I took another look at you 126 page opus.

"If you’ve read the whole article carefully, it should be pretty obvious to anyone who is being honest with the text that the English terms “everlasting,” “eternal,” and “for ever” are figures of speech which almost never literally mean “without end” or “never ending” when they’re used in less literal English translations of Scripture such as the KJV (and that the same goes for the word “never” as well). However, for those who are looking for even more proof of this, all we have to do is look to the Hebrew Scriptures, which make it very clear that nearly everything which is referred to by these words in the Bible does eventually come to an end.​

You used the term "figuratively" 74 times.
"English terms 'everlasting,' 'eternal,' and 'for ever' are figures of speech which almost never literally mean 'without end' or 'never ending'"
You have this backwards the Greek word 'aionios' correctly translated 'eternal,' 'everlasting'" is almost never used figuratively.
"Almost never" implies that "aionios" sometimes does mean "eternal". In which vss, do you think "aionios" is correctly translated "eternal" and why?
As for the Hebrew scriptures I also did a study of every occurrence of "olam" in the OT and it is almost never used figuratively. I found 68 vss. where olam is defined/described by adjectives/descriptive phrases as eternal etc. It is 7 pages long and too long to post. Here are 10 vss. from that list of 68.

(1)Jeremiah 51:39​

(39) In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual [olam] sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.​

(2)Jeremiah 50:5​

(5) They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual [olam] covenant that shall not be forgotten.​

(3)Jeremiah 23:40​

(40) And I will bring an everlasting [olam] reproach upon you, and a perpetual [olam] shame, which shall not be forgotten.​

(4)Isaiah 56:5​

Even unto them will I give in My house and within My walls a monument and a memorial better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting [olam]memorial, that shall not be cut off.​

(5)Isaiah 55:13​

(13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle; and it shall be to the LORD for a memorial, for an everlasting [olam] sign that shall not be cut off.​

(6)Isaiah 51:6​

(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath; for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner; but My salvation shall be for ever, [olam] and My favour shall not be abolished.​

(7)Psalms 148:6​

(6) He hath also established them for ever and ever; [olam ad] He hath made a decree which shall not be transgressed.​

(8)Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever;[olam] nothing can be added to it, nor any thing taken from it; and God hath so made it, that men should fear before Him.​

(9)Psalms 81:15​

(15) The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever [olam].​

(10)Exodus 3:15​

(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever [olam], and this is my memorial unto all generations​

 

[drewcosten]

@drewcosten
I took another look at you 126 page opus.

"If you’ve read the whole article carefully, it should be pretty obvious to anyone who is being honest with the text that the English terms “everlasting,” “eternal,” and “for ever” are figures of speech which almost never literally mean “without end” or “never ending” when they’re used in less literal English translations of Scripture such as the KJV (and that the same goes for the word “never” as well). However, for those who are looking for even more proof of this, all we have to do is look to the Hebrew Scriptures, which make it very clear that nearly everything which is referred to by these words in the Bible does eventually come to an end.​

You used the term "figuratively" 74 times.
"English terms 'everlasting,' 'eternal,' and 'for ever' are figures of speech which almost never literally mean 'without end' or 'never ending'"
You have this backwards the Greek word 'aionios' correctly translated 'eternal,' 'everlasting'" is almost never used figuratively.
"Almost never" implies that "aionios" sometimes does mean "eternal". In which vss, do you think "aionios" is correctly translated "eternal" and why?
As for the Hebrew scriptures I also did a study of every occurrence of "olam" in the OT and it is almost never used figuratively. I found 68 vss. where olam is defined/described by adjectives/descriptive phrases as eternal etc. It is 7 pages long and too long to post. Here are 10 vss. from that list of 68.

(1)Jeremiah 51:39​

(39) In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual [olam] sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.​

(2)Jeremiah 50:5​

(5) They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual [olam] covenant that shall not be forgotten.​

(3)Jeremiah 23:40​

(40) And I will bring an everlasting [olam] reproach upon you, and a perpetual [olam] shame, which shall not be forgotten.​

(4)Isaiah 56:5​

(5)Even unto them will I give in My house and within My walls a monument and a memorial better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting [olam]memorial, that shall not be cut off.​

(6)Isaiah 55:13​

(13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle; and it shall be to the LORD for a memorial, for an everlasting [olam] sign that shall not be cut off.​

(7)Isaiah 51:6​

(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath; for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner; but My salvation shall be for ever, [olam] and My favour shall not be abolished.​

(7)Psalms 148:6​

(6) He hath also established them for ever and ever; [olam ad] He hath made a decree which shall not be transgressed.​

(8)Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever;[olam] nothing can be added to it, nor any thing taken from it; and God hath so made it, that men should fear before Him.​

(9)Psalms 81:15​

(15) The haters of the LORD should have submitted themselves unto him: but their time should have endured for ever [olam].​

(10)Exodus 3:15​

(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever [olam], and this is my memorial unto all generations​

There’s no way you read the whole article carefully, from beginning to end, and clicked all the links throughout it. If you had, you’d see why I wrote what I did and why what I wrote is correct. If you want to argue with what I wrote, that’s fine, but you’ll have to read it first.

 

[Der Alte]

There’s no way you read the whole article carefully, from beginning to end, and clicked all the links throughout it. If you had, you’d see why I wrote what I did and why what I wrote is correct. If you want to argue with what I wrote, that’s fine, but you’ll have to read it first.

Sorry amigo since you will not extend me the courtesy of addressing any of my much shorter posts no can do. The fact that you dismissed, as figurative, all translation of "aionios" as eternal as false. I saw no support of any kind. And you have not addressed that part of my post showing that "olam" does in fact mean "eternal." All scripture quoted from the 1906 Jewish Publication Society English OT. I would say that native Hebrew speaking scholars know what the Hebrew words mean in English.

 

[drewcosten]

Sorry amigo since you will not extend me the courtesy of addressing any of my much shorter posts no can do. The fact that you dismissed, as figurative, all translation of "aionios" as eternal as false. I saw no support of any kind. And you have not addressed that part of my post showing that "olam" does in fact mean "eternal." All scripture quoted from the 1906 Jewish Publication Society English OT. I would say that native Hebrew speaking scholars know what the Hebrew words mean in English.

As I said in the introduction of the article, I won’t discuss this topic with anyone who hasn’t actually read the whole thing first. Did you not read the introduction where I said that?

Anyway, for anyone who does want to know the truth about this topic, it’s in the article.

 

[Omniskeptical]

In another thread, someone quoted Matthew 7:21-23, pointing out that the Bible says not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven, and they seemed surprised by the fact that I agreed with them that not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven, even though I believe that everyone will experience salvation in the end.

What many Christians don’t seem to realize is that Universalists (at least concordant, scriptural Universalists) believe every word in the Bible, and so simply quoting a passage from Scripture that you assume teaches never-ending torment in hell isn’t going to be convincing to us, because we already agree with that passage (just as we agree with all passages of Scripture). It’s just that we interpret the so-called “proof text” passages that tend to be used to support the popular doctrine of never-ending torment differently than you do, and based on the context (of both the surrounding verses, as well as of Scripture as a whole), we don’t see them as meaning what you likely assume they mean.

Now I didn’t start this thread to debate Scriptural Universalism, since there are already more than enough threads on this forum doing that. But if anyone is curious to learn how someone could agree with the fact that people will be cast into everlasting hell fire, as well as cast into outer darkness, and will not enter the kingdom of heaven, and yet will still experience salvation, I did write a (long) study on the topic a couple years ago, which I’ll share with you here. You don’t have to read it, but it’s available for anyone who is curious how we interpret these passages, and why we don’t think they contradict Universalism at all: What the Bible really says about heaven, hell, judgement, death, and salvation

You don't know the difference between the kingdom of Heaven and the kingdom of God.