Scriptural Evidence?

[Morallyangelic]

I am a logical person, or at least I'd like to think I am.

I can't willingly ignore evidence, for some reason my brain won't allow it being that I am a logical person.

I still don't know very much about evolution but I am starting to learn more and more everyday and the way I've always seen things is starting to not add up.

NOW I can look at this one of three ways...

1. Satan brought me here and is keeping me here so that I will doubt the truth and word of God.

2. I'm not hearing enough good arguments from YEC's and this forum is mostly monopolized by evoltionists. So the arguments aren't ' Fair '.

3. Evolutist's are right.


So, I have a very important question to anyone who knows the Bible well enough to answer.


Where does it say in the Bible that if I don't believe in a YEC that I am not a child of God? or that I will be judged poorly?

I mean all I ever hear over and over again from MY christian community is that when you have a question you should always rely on scripture for the answer and not the voice of man.

Is believing in evolution any worse in the eyes of a Biblical God then smoking, drinking, or whatever ?


I realize what Genesis says about the creation but where does it say that was meant literally?


Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[vipertaja]

1. Satan brought me here and is keeping me here so that I will doubt the truth and word of God.

2. I'm not hearing enough good arguments from YEC's and this forum is mostly monopolized by evoltionists. So the arguments aren't ' Fair '.

3. Evolutist's are right.

It's all satan's doing babe. Oh yeah.

 

[GoSeminoles!]

Where does it say in the Bible that if I don't believe in a YEC that I am not a child of God? or that I will be judged poorly? ... Is believing in evolution any worse in the eyes of a Biblical God then smoking, drinking, or whatever ?

Consider that there are many prominant Christian colleges and universities which emphasize evolution in their biology curriculum. These include Wheaton College, Baylor University, Boston College, and Notre Dame. The notion that one cannot accept evolution and retain one's faith is a huge lie.

 

[Morallyangelic]

It's all satan's doing babe. Oh yeah.

Gee, if I become an evolutionist will I get to become as mean and ignorant as you???

Unbelieveable.

 

[vipertaja]

Gee, if I become an evolutionist will I get to become as mean and ignorant as you???

Unbelieveable.

I was joking. After all, many creationists do call atheists (s)pawns of satan.
Chill down will you?

 

[notto]

Gee, if I become an evolutionist will I get to become as mean and ignorant as you???

Unbelieveable.

He simply selected one of the options you put forward.

 

[Morallyangelic]

I was joking. After all, many creationists do call atheists (s)pawns of satan.
Chill down will you?

Some people do take their faith and their beliefs systems seriously.

I'm very conflicted right now and very confused and would appreciated some real answers instead of some snide remarks if that's possible.

And I personally don't believe that atheists are spawns of Satan.

 

[notto]

4. God brought you here and is keeping you here so that you will gain a bigger appreciation for the Creation by understanding it realistically and not have to accept falsehoods and bad science put forth by those that wish to deceive you.

 

[vipertaja]

Some people do take their faith and their beliefs systems seriously.

I'm very conflicted right now and very confused and would appreciated some real answers instead of some snide remarks if that's possible.

And I personally don't believe that atheists are spawns of Satan.

Yeah...now that I think of it you do seem quite spicy when it comes to
christianity...that is not necessarily a good trait in this forum. Snide remarks
are my speciality but I guess it's possible for me to answer seriously.

I do find it ironic that you'd find a being called satan sending you to a
place called "christianforums.com" an option. Beware of such thinking
though. It's all too easy to shield ones thoughts by claiming something is
"tainted" or "forbidden knowledge" or whatever...such leads to ignorance
and dictatorships and theocracies thrive on it. That's why we have people
flying planes into buildings and killing homosexuals. Feel free to take an
argument "with a grain of salt" so to speak, but do not avoid information.
Seeing as you're here though I think we can safely say that you're not
doing that, which is good.

 

[Morallyangelic]

4. God brought you here and is keeping you here so that you will gain a bigger appreciation for the Creation by understanding it realistically and not have to accept falsehoods and bad science put forth by those that wish to deceive you.

If that is true then I really wish to SEE this understanding realistically.
As far as I've seen so far YEC's aren't giving compelling arguments.

 

[madbear]

Where does it say in the Bible that if I don't believe in a YEC that I am not a child of God? or that I will be judged poorly?

Nowhere. I would urge anyone who is told that to consider that YEC is a relatively new doctrine, based on a particular mode of translating and intepreting the Bible. You don't have to take my word for this... some of the earliest and most respected Christian thinkers who ever lived absolutely repudiate the notion of a literal reading of Gen. 1. Take this, from St Augustine, for example, writing in 408AD -- 1600 years ago. He is talking about the notion that `Let there be light' absorbs exactly 24 hours, as the short-earthers maintain:

Although this work of God was done in an instant, did the light remain, with-out night coming on, until the time of one day was complete; [...] ? But if I make such a statement, I fear I shall be laughed at both by those who have scientific knowledge of these matters and by those who can easily recognize the facts of the case. At the time when night is with us, the sun is illuminating with its presence those parts of the world through which it returns from the place of its setting to that of its rising. Hence it is that for the whole twenty-four hours of the sun’s circuit there is always day in one place and night in another. Surely, then, we are not going to place God in a region where it will be evening for Him as the sun’s light leaves that land for another.

In short, one of the earliest Christian thinkers believed that the idea that the `day' referred to in Gen. 1 is a 24-hour period is something to be `laughed at'. In fact, it is hard to find any of the Church Fathers saying anything at all that supports a young-earth interpretation.

In fact, the whole of Augustine's Literal Interpretation of Gensis deserves close reading by anybody who wants to free his or her mind from the nonsense on stilts that is young-earth creationism. After all, there's no need to trust me, but Augustine was enormously closer to the time, culture, and traditions of the early Christians than we are.

The reality is that YEC is a totemic issue that certain conservative Christians rally around, to distinguish themselves from liberals. It's part of a package of conservative ideas that keep getting trotted out on these forums -- homosexuality is evil, women are inferior to men, Jesus repudiates people who do not believe in his divinity, Hell is a hot place, etc., etc. There is little or no scriptural authority for any of these propositions -- they simply result from the hermenuetic tradition of conservatives.

Best wishes
MadBear

PS. English translations of Augustine are not hard to find on the Web.

 

[Morallyangelic]

Yeah...now that I think of it you do seem quite spicy when it comes to
christianity...that is not necessarily a good trait in this forum. Snide remarks
are my speciality but I guess it's possible for me to answer seriously.

I do find it ironic that you'd find a being called satan sending you to a
place called "christianforums.com" an option. Beware of such thinking
though. It's all too easy to shield ones thoughts by claiming something is
"tainted" or "forbidden knowledge" or whatever...such leads to ignorance
and dictatorships and theocracies thrive on it. That's why we have people
flying planes into buildings and killing homosexuals. Feel free to take an
argument "with a grain of salt" so to speak, but do not avoid information.
Seeing as you're here though I think we can safely say that you're not
doing that, which is good.

From what I know of Satan he is the Prince of deception, I don't put anything past him or the resources he uses.

However, thanks for your comments.

 

[Morallyangelic]

Nowhere. I would urge anyone who is told that to consider that YEC is a relatively new doctrine, based on a particular mode of translating and intepreting the Bible. You don't have to take my word for this... some of the earliest and most respected Christian thinkers who ever lived absolutely repudiate the notion of a literal reading of Gen. 1. Take this, from St Augustine, for example, writing in 408AD -- 1600 years ago. He is talking about the notion that `Let there be light' absorbs exactly 24 hours, as the short-earthers maintain:



In short, one of the earliest Christian thinkers believed that the idea that the `day' referred to in Gen. 1 is a 24-hour period is something to be `laughed at'. In fact, it is hard to find any of the Church Fathers saying anything at all that supports a young-earth interpretation.

In fact, the whole of Augustine's Literal Interpretation of Gensis deserves close reading by anybody who wants to free his or her mind from the nonsense on stilts that is young-earth creationism. After all, there's no need to trust me, but Augustine was enormously closer to the time, culture, and traditions of the early Christians than we are.

The reality is that YEC is a totemic issue that certain conservative Christians rally around, to distinguish themselves from liberals. It's part of a package of conservative ideas that keep getting trotted out on these forums -- homosexuality is evil, women are inferior to men, Jesus repudiates people who do not believe in his divinity, Hell is a hot place, etc., etc. There is little or no scriptural authority for any of these propositions -- they simply result from the hermenuetic tradition of conservatives.

Best wishes
MadBear

PS. English translations of Augustine are not hard to find on the Web.

Thank you for that information, I will definitely look that up and do some reading on it.

 

[vipertaja]

From what I know of Satan he is the Prince of deception, I don't put anything past him or the resources he uses.

However, thanks for your comments.

I give you one thing though...you're consistent on your beliefs when it comes
to satan. Many christians say that satan is incredibly smart, but tend to
unintentionally either imply that he is incredibly stupid or that they're smarter
than him.

 

[Morallyangelic]

Does anyone that KNOWS the Bible and the Scriptures know of anything that says I must believe in a YEC?

Like a specific passage?

C'mon YECs .... Need your help here!

Here's another question.

Let's say I didn't believe in a young Earth and I did believe in a Earth that is millions of years old or billions of years old. What am I then? I've seen enough proof to possibly see the world being older than 6,000 years but I still haven't seen alot of proof for evolution itself.

Whew, that probably didn't make much sense.

hahahah - Sorry guys!

 

[sparklecat]

If that is true then I really wish to SEE this understanding realistically.
As far as I've seen so far YEC's aren't giving compelling arguments.

YEC is based wholly on the Bible (rather, a certain dogmatic interpretation of it). The arguments aren't compelling because YEC does not appear to correspond to reality, and you can't claim the miraculous as support when it needs to be taken on faith.

 

[dclem9834]

creationism is just a very very conservative interprtation of the bible, it cant be supported by any science and i doubt ever will be. that doesnt mean that evolution is Godless by any means. if God has his hands in everything then evolution is just Gods deighn for things. as Einstein put it "i dont believe God plays dice with the universe" this was his way of saying that anything found by science is just showing how God made order and created natural laws that are able to govern all things, evolution being of that. the onlyhing in the bible that contradicts this thinking is adam and eve idea of just being created, but i dont take the stories of the Bilble that literally so it works for me to be an evolutionist

 

[notto]

If that is true then I really wish to SEE this understanding realistically.
As far as I've seen so far YEC's aren't giving compelling arguments.

That is because it is the YEC's who wish you to accept lies and poor science.

 

[Morallyangelic]

creationism is just a very very conservative interprtation of the bible, it cant be supported by any science and i doubt ever will be. that doesnt mean that evolution is Godless by any means. if God has his hands in everything then evolution is just Gods deighn for things. as Einstein put it "i dont believe God plays dice with the universe" this was his way of saying that anything found by science is just showing how God made order and created natural laws that are able to govern all things, evolution being of that. the onlyhing in the bible that contradicts this thinking is adam and eve idea of just being created, but i dont take the stories of the Bilble that literally so it works for me to be an evolutionist

If you don't take the stories literally how do you take them?
You just leave them up to your own interpertation? or how?

 

[Remus]

Does anyone that KNOWS the Bible and the Scriptures know of anything that says I must believe in a YEC?

Like a specific passage?

C'mon YECs .... Need your help here!

There is nothing in Scripture that says that you must hold the YEC opinion.

Here's another question.

Let's say I didn't believe in a young Earth and I did believe in a Earth that is millions of years old or billions of years old. What am I then? I've seen enough proof to possibly see the world being older than 6,000 years but I still haven't seen alot of proof for evolution itself.

Sounds like you're OEC.

If you have other questions, feel free to pm me. I may be able to help.