"scientific" view of afterlife

[ThaiDuykhang]

What if we find ourselves fighting this "theory" one day?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_immortality

 

[LewisWildermuth]

What if we find ourselves fighting this "theory" one day?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_immortality

First it is a speculation, a thought exercise, not a theory at all.



Let us say that somehow the many-universe idea was some how shown to be correct and we could see at least some of these other universes. Would that shake your belief in God? Why?



I see no problem with God creating many alternate universes, and theologically it would be an interesting debate about whether the other you's all shared the same soul or not. But no big shake up in my personal belief in a God and Christianity.



You seem to have a problem with it. Could you please explain what your problem would be?

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

You seem to have a problem with it. Could you please explain what your problem would be?

You probably misunderstand me. the most problematic part of that "theory" is human never die or feel death. thus will never face God's judgement.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

You probably misunderstand me. the most problematic part of that "theory" is human never die or feel death. thus will never face God's judgement.

Then I think you seem to have misunderstood the entire article that you linked.



I don't know if I can explain the multi-universe idea and this thought exercise simply, but I will try.



In the multi-universe idea (a spin off of quantum physics), since the universe is at a net 0 energy level, it is possible that for every quantum event that takes place a new universe is born for every possible outcome. Since there is a slight (incredibly small) possibility that one could survive standing next to an exploding nuke in quantum physics, in one of these possible universes the man would survive while in most he would die. This person might think "Hey I am immortal!" then might trip on a rock and break his neck at the next moment. It states nothing about real immortality, just surviving one thing that might have killed you.



So your accusation of trying to escape God’s judgment seems to have been based on a reading error, not anything that the article really said.

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

So your accusation of trying to escape God’s judgment seems to have been based on a reading error, not anything that the article really said.

Perhaps I should make it more clear. read this:

Another example is that provided by quantum suicide where a physicist sits in front of a gun which is triggered, or not triggered, by radioactive decay. With each run of the experiment there is a fifty-fifty chance that the gun will be triggered and the physicist will die. If the Copenhagen interpretation is correct, then the gun will eventually be triggered and the physicist will die. If the many-worlds interpretation is correct, then at each run of the experiment the physicist will be split into a world in which he lives and one in which he dies. In the worlds where the physicist dies, he will cease to exist. However, from the point of view of the physicist, the experiment will continue running without his ceasing to exist,

Imagine that a physicist detonates a nuclear bomb beside him. In almost all parallel universes, the nuclear explosion will vaporize the physicist. However, there should be a small set of alternative universes in which the physicist somehow survives

you always feel you're alive no matter what are happening to you seen by others

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

In other words, seeing one hit by a bullet and died, others think he is in heaven or hell. But the person himself don't know he's killed. And for some reason he's still alive.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Perhaps I should make it more clear. read this:

you always feel you're alive no matter what are happening to you seen by others

The physicist only feels he has not died because he does not know about all the other universes where he did die... Let me try again.



In quantum physics things can be in more than one place at the same time, we can see this with small things like light, atoms and small molecules with double slit experiments. The problem is that quantum physics has is that it can't explain at the moment why large objects don't do the same thing and relativity can't explain why small objects can. The thought experiments talked about here involve the many-worlds idea that large objects can, but each possible location or state is in its own universe that we cannot currently detect.



Say I had a quantum gun and played Russian roulette with a five shot revolver, there is a one in five chance that I'll be dead when I pull the trigger. Since it is quantum every possibility would instantly have it's own universe. In four of the universes I am alive, in one I am dead. The alive versions of me do not know about each other or the dead version of me. The alive versions will go on their own paths after the split, one may get hit by a bus an hour later, one might live two more years, one might die in fifty, one might win the lotto. There is no real immortality in this thought experiment, just the survival of a few that do not know how the others did or even know that they exist at all.



All it is saying is that in some universe the person will not be killed by event A, it says nothing about the person never dying. You are protesting against something that does not exist.

 

[shernren]

In the many-worlds interpretation there is no causal interaction whatsoever between alternate universes. In other words, there is no way to cross over between them.

Also, this article's "immortality" would only apply to people who are killed by processes resulting directly from quantum indeterminacy. A person being shot in the head, say, will not have his consciousness splitting into one universe where he is alive and another where he is dead. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle says that the product of uncertainty between an object's momentum and position is Planck's constant which is incredibly minute. The bullet will always end up in the person's head at fatal speed no matter how much uncertainty there is in either quantity; and so the person will be dead in any alternate universe of quantum mechanic's choosing.

(this by the way highlights one thing I've been saying for a while: Zen Buddhist / maya interpretations of quantum mechanics pose a far, far, far greater threat to Christian theistic thought in this postmodern time than anything evolutionism can come up with.)

 

[LewisWildermuth]

In other words, seeing one hit by a bullet and died, others think he is in heaven or hell. But the person himself don't know he's killed. And for some reason he's still alive.

Umm... No. In the universes where the person died, then they go onto whatever comes after death for them, in the universes where the person did not die, then they go on living their life until something else causes their deaths.

The after life is not mentioned because it is supernatural and science cannot investigate it and it also has no bearing or effect on the thought experiment.

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

All it is saying is that in some universe the person will not be killed by event A, it says nothing about the person never dying. You are protesting against something that does not exist.

The article only says one always feels the universe he's a live. it doesn't specify which universe he's feeling.

your revolver is inadequate. it's not random. though firing a bullet at your head results in a universe you're dead, a universe the bullet is a "dud", a universe your aim is so bad that the bullet missed your head, etc. according to the theory, you only know you survived a disaster by a lucky dud bullet. you don't know in another world you survived due to poor aiming or vice versa.

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

Umm... No. In the universes where the person died, then they go onto whatever comes after death for them, in the universes where the person did not die, then they go on living their life until something else causes their deaths.

The after life is not mentioned because it is supernatural and science cannot investigate it and it also has no bearing or effect on the thought experiment.

Then how many souls a person has? unlimited according to the theory. I guess. so while we're Christians in this world. we may be Satanists in another world?

 

[JediMobius]

and that is why I say science is a waste of time

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Then how many souls a person has? unlimited according to the theory. I guess. so while we're Christians in this world. we may be Satanists in another world?

I don't know, that would be the interesting theological debate I was hinting at earlier, but since we will most likely never be able to detect or interact with these other universes I don't worry about it.



Maybe each universe is a separate soul, maybe not. Are you implying that God may only be able to handle a finite amount of souls in the afterlife? Is there eventually going to be a no vacancy sign in heaven because lack of room?

 

[LewisWildermuth]

and that is why I say science is a waste of time

This is why I find it interesting, the wondrous works of God and how He may have done things has always fascinated me. To each their own I guess.

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

This is why I find it interesting, the wondrous works of God and how He may have done things has always fascinated me. To each their own I guess.

More interesting facts with this "theory", since brain mechanism involves quantum physics. the moment you accept Jesus as God, there's a universe you accept Satan as your Lord

 

[LewisWildermuth]

More interesting facts with this "theory", since brain mechanism involves quantum physics. the moment you accept Jesus as God, there's a universe you accept Satan as your Lord

Maybe, but I have enough on my hands dealing with the universe I am in, I don't think I'll worry too much about universes that may or may not be there and what I may or may not have done in them. I think God is smart enough to figure it all out so I'll let Him.

Edit... Oh yes, as I stated before this is not a theory, only a thought experiment. Something to get the mental juices flowing, nothing more.

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

Maybe, but I have enough on my hands dealing with the universe I am in, I don't think I'll worry too much about universes that may or may not be there and what I may or may not have done in them. I think God is smart enough to figure it all out so I'll let Him.

Edit... Oh yes, as I stated before this is not a theory, only a thought experiment. Something to get the mental juices flowing, nothing more.

The moment you think it's time for you to enter heaven, you just enter another universe.

 

[LewisWildermuth]

The moment you think it's time for you to enter heaven, you just enter another universe.

Huh?

Are you getting zen on us or something?

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

Huh?

Are you getting zen on us or something?

Not me but something called science.
I believe after one's death it's time for God's judgement. and "go to another universe" isn't a possible outcome. however science thinks differently!

 

[ThaiDuykhang]

I never have problem rejecting a scientific claim. however TEs who let science decide thoelogy have.
See how long you support multiple-universe claim until now?
Science should follow theology instead of vice versa.