Scientific Dogma

[gaara4158]

I'm troubled... I'm seeing an increasing occurence of the phrase scientific dogma being used by creationists. This leads be to believe that they don't really know the definition of the word "dogma." The American Heritage Dictionary defines it as:

1. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church.
2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. See Synonyms at doctrine.
3. A principle or belief or a group of them: "The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present" (Abraham Lincoln).

Now, anyone who believes there is any dogma in any part of science, please come forth and plead your case. What tenet of science, if evidence to the contrary were found, would stand nonetheless?

 

[AV1611VET]

What tenet of science, if evidence to the contrary were found, would stand nonetheless?

Well, let's see --- where do I begin?

• overpopulation
• depletion of resources
• global warming
• Y2K --- [okay, scratch that one]
• asteroid impact
• comet impact
• planetary alignment
• the Red Sca... [scratch that one]
• nuclear power
• alien invasion from outer space
• radon gas
• aluminum
• lead paint

I'm gonna stop here --- I need to check my bunker.

ETA: I'm back.

While checking my bunker, an avian dinosaur flew overhead, and I thought of this one too: According to science, don't we come from Ciconia ciconia, instead of Magillus Gorillus?

 

[Hespera]

wouldnt it be nice to have a thread without av jumping in with his inanities?

 

[pgp_protector]

wouldnt it be nice to have a thread without av jumping in with his inanities?

I think that would be true Evidence of a Miracle

 

[gaara4158]

Well, let's see --- where do I begin?

• overpopulation
• depletion of resources
• global warming
• Y2K --- [okay, scratch that one]
• asteroid impact
• comet impact
• planetary alignment
• the Red Sca... [scratch that one]
• nuclear power
• alien invasion from outer space
• radon gas
• aluminum
• lead paint

I'm gonna stop here --- I need to check my bunker.

ETA: I'm back.

While checking my bunker, an avian dinosaur flew overhead, and I thought of this one too: According to science, don't we come from Ciconia ciconia, instead of Magillus Gorillus?

I'm afraid there's been a misunderstanding. Please read the question again. Or am I to understand that on these issues, no matter what evidence is presented, scientific consensus will never budge from its current position?

 

[AV1611VET]

I'm afraid there's been a misunderstanding. Please read the question again. Or am I to understand that on these issues, no matter what evidence is presented, scientific consensus will never budge from its current position?

When I was in college, and everyone was catering to the Club of Rome's overpopulation propaganda, it was pointed out that you could fit the population of the entire planet w/i the county of Jacksonville, FL, USA.

Did that sway anyone? Huh! Are you kidding?

And Y2K? Let's not even go there.

 

[Danyc]

When I was in college, and everyone was catering to the Club of Rome's overpopulation propaganda, it was pointed out that you could fit the population of the entire planet w/i the county of Jacksonville, FL, USA.

Did that sway anyone? Huh! Are you kidding?

And Y2K? Let's not even go there.

And do people routinely live within millimeters from each other?

Come on, AV.

 

[ragarth]

Well, let's see --- where do I begin?

• overpopulation
• depletion of resources
• global warming
• Y2K --- [okay, scratch that one]
• asteroid impact
• comet impact
• planetary alignment
• the Red Sca... [scratch that one]
• nuclear power
• alien invasion from outer space
• radon gas
• aluminum
• lead paint

I'm gonna stop here --- I need to check my bunker.

These are predictions, and within the context of science a prediction can be proven wrong, ie, falsified. If science accepts the fact that these can be falsified, then these are not absolutely true. If they're not absolutely true and can be changed by a body of evidence, then they're not dogma.

To put this in context, it's Christians believe that God exists. Can you agree that this is an absolute truth? If so, then this is indeed dogma

 

[gaara4158]

When I was in college, and everyone was catering to the Club of Rome's overpopulation propaganda, it was pointed out that you could fit the population of the entire planet w/i the county of Jacksonville, FL, USA.

Did that sway anyone? Huh! Are you kidding?

And Y2K? Let's not even go there.

Yes, because we definitely still believe that Y2K is a legitimate scare.

 

[Naraoia]

There IS dogma in science!!!

 

[ragarth]

There IS dogma in science!!!

You are right, there is! I bow before you, I hereby proclaim you The Mighty Dog-Ra of Dogma.

 

[Naraoia]

Pffft

 

[sbvera13]

When I was in college, and everyone was catering to the Club of Rome's overpopulation propaganda, it was pointed out that you could fit the population of the entire planet w/i the county of Jacksonville, FL, USA.

Did that sway anyone? Huh! Are you kidding?

Can you house the entire population of the planet comfortably, and sanitarily within the county of Jacksonville, FL? Can you produce enough food to feed them? Can you produce the raw materials to meet their needs? Can you provide enough space for the activity and exercise to keep them healthy? Can you also house the factories, laboratories, and offices that provide essential services? Landfills and sewage plants? Educational facilities?

A person requires MUCH more land area to support their life and needs then the physical space they occupy. Your example does nothing to address these issues.

 

[AV1611VET]

These are predictions, and within the context of science a prediction can be proven wrong, ie, falsified.

I'll tell you what then, Ragarth --- tell your scientific buddies to keep their theories to themselves until it is falsified or shown to be true --- how's that?

Only that's not going to happen, is it?

I think it's called the Publish or Perish Principle --- get your name in lights --- whether it be for 15 minutes of fame, or 50 years of worrying about global annihilation --- we "common folk" will usually suffer the consequences of yet another science rush job.

And as long as there's someone else to take the blame for their miscalculations (Launch Control, big pharmaceutical companies, the government), they'll keep on alerting us to threats like killer bees or global warming, or what have you, while Thalidomide Babies get pictured on the Internet.

If science accepts the fact that these can be falsified, then these are not absolutely true. If they're not absolutely true and can be changed by a body of evidence, then they're not dogma.

Then falsify them --- and do it quickly --- before someone else gets hurt, or goes nuts worrying about something.

Better yet, keep your formulas in the laboratories and out of the hands of big pharmaceutical companies until they are falsified.

I could easily write a scientific article for Scientific Phenomenon --- it would go something like this:

I kinda think that research somewhat shows that maybe by the year 2050 now, the world just might be so depleted of its natural resources that maybe we'll be at a critical stage. Unless we decide to stop eating twice a day, and go to eating just once, the earth just might run out. HOWEVER, Dr. Soandso tends to disagree. He says, "....."
In any event, we probably need to start cutting down to one meal a day...
​

Then --- turn the page --- and what's there?

An advertisement:

Any loved ones you know who suffer from anorexia? Just call...
​

Science magazines kill me --- they have stories about SAVE THE WHALES and whatever, while advertising shark cartilage as a cure for memory loss - (or whatever it is).

 

[AV1611VET]

Yes, because we definitely still believe that Y2K is a legitimate scare.

I don't doubt that one bit. Since 1k is actually 1024, this would mean that Y2K will actually bring about the end of civilization as we know it in 2048, not 2000.

 

[AV1611VET]

A person requires MUCH more land area to support their life and needs then the physical space they occupy. Your example does nothing to address these issues.

Are you telling me that a person can die of overcrowding, living on a 20-acre spread?

My example shows that we are FAR from living shoulder-to-shoulder as science was leading us to believe back in the late '70s.

 

[MrGoodBytes]

I'll tell you what then, Ragarth --- tell your scientific buddies to keep their theories to themselves until it is falsified or shown to be true --- how's that?

Only that's not going to happen, is it?

I think it's called the Publish or Perish Principle --- get your name in lights --- whether it be for 15 minutes of fame, or 50 years of worrying about global annihilation --- we "common folk" will usually suffer the consequences of yet another science rush job.

And as long as there's someone else to take the blame for their miscalculations (Launch Control, big pharmaceutical companies, the government), they'll keep on alerting us to threats like killer bees or global warming, or what have you, while Thalidomide Babies get pictured on the Internet.Then falsify them --- and do it quickly --- before someone else gets hurt, or goes nuts worrying about something.

Better yet, keep your formulas in the laboratories and out of the hands of big pharmaceutical companies until they are falsified.

I could easily write a scientific article for Scientific Phenomenon --- it would go something like this:

I kinda think that research somewhat shows that maybe by the year 2050 now, the world just might be so depleted of its natural resources that maybe we'll be at a critical stage. Unless we decide to stop eating twice a day, and go to eating just once, the earth just might run out. HOWEVER, Dr. Soandso tends to disagree. He says, "....."
In any event, we probably need to start cutting down to one meal a day...
​

Then --- turn the page --- and what's there?

An advertisement:

Any loved ones you know who suffer from anorexia? Just call...
​

Science magazines kill me --- they have stories about SAVE THE WHALES and whatever, while advertising shark cartilage as a cure for memory loss - (or whatever it is).

None of this nonsense is in any way connected with the OP. Even if you had a point, nothing you said even slightly hints at the existence of a scientific dogma. Quite the opposite, actually. If you want to accuse scientists of publishing speculative research just to get attention, fine. I think that you have no idea how scientific publishing works, but that's for another thread. However, this accusation all but contradicts the notion that science has dogmas that will never be altered or abolished completely - how could that be, when scientists are publishing and retracting faster than they should?

 

[gaara4158]

Are you telling me that a person can die of overcrowding, living on a 20-acre spread?

My example shows that we are FAR from living shoulder-to-shoulder as science was leading us to believe back in the late '70s.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with "scientific dogmas." Please make your point, if you have one.

 

[MrGoodBytes]

Are you telling me that a person can die of overcrowding, living on a 20-acre spread?

My example shows that we are FAR from living shoulder-to-shoulder as science was leading us to believe back in the late '70s.

The problem with overpopulation isn't the lack of space for people to exist, it's the amount of resources needed to sustain such a large number of humans. Only a fraction of the Earth's surface can be used for farming - go try to live on 20 acres of Saharan sand, or 20 acres of Siberian permafrost.

 

[ragarth]

Jacksonville, Florida is located within Duval County with a total area of 918 mi^2
There are: 4,014,489,600 inches per mile or 3,685,301,452,800 in^2 (4,014,489,600 * 918) in Duval County, Florida.

As of 7/1/2009 there was around 6,790,062,216 people in the world.

3,685,301,452,800 / 6,790,062,216 = 542 in^2 per person, or:

542 in^2 / (12" * 12") = 3.76 feet per person.

To put this in perspective, the upper average area of economy class seating in the USA is: 18" * 32" or 576 in^2, which comes out to: 4 feet^2 (576 / (12 * 12)). This is not including other amenities on the aircraft, not the aisle, the bathroom, or anything else, only the space within the aircraft from one side of the seat cushion to the other, and from the back of the chair you sit in to the back of the chair infront of you. So you are proclaiming that people can life their entire lives within a box small than the seat given to you on a coach airflight in the USA.


You see, that's closer to scientific study. What you're espousing is anti-science. It's the anti-particle to rational thought, if you're reasoning were accepted in science, it would anhilate science and we'd all be wallowing in pig feces as indentured servants, fearing Zues as he threatens infedels with his mighty lightning.

edit: To clarify, that's a *total* acreage of 918 mi^2, so that 3.76 feet^2 leave no space for walls, trees, toilet seats, roads, or even space to walk. If Bob wants to visit Joe 14 squares over, he's have to push through 14 other people's squares to get there.