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Science vs. Evolution

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Cassiterides

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Oh my....the origin of life, dear friend, is not part of the ToE.

So the cell just appeared? What came before the cell? If you start at the cell, then you must be some form of a creationist since you acknowledge it did not evolve from anything smaller.

Talk all you like about conscience that fact will remain, and the fact that evolution has taken place will remain.

You didn't even answer how evolution explains the conscience...this was precisely why Darwin had rivals in his day like Alfred Wallace who believed the conscience could not be explained by evolution.

speaking of conscience, since you brought it up, does it ever bother yours to make up things that are not true, and then say them as if they were facts?

I've never made anything up that is not true in this thread. On the contrary i even admitted creationism can not be proven by the scientific method (and i'm a creationist) since we can't go back in time to observe it or replicate how it was done.
 
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plindboe

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Yes, since they are so ignorant they think they have all the answers but when asked how life started they say they don't have a clue, this even includes militant atheistical-evolutionists like Richard Dawkins who has admitted repeatedly ''he doesn't know''.

You're contradicting yourself. If they say "I don't know" obviously they don't think they have all the answers.

To utter words "I don't know" requires honesty and humility. I'm not surprised you find these concepts foreign and puzzling, considering your behaviour in this thread.

It's funny how creationists continuously attack the theory of evolution for being just like any other scientific theory. They say it's "just a theory", but would never say the same about germ theory. They say it must be directly observable, but would never say the same about electrons or extrasolar planets. They attack it for not explaining the origin of life, but would never attack atomic theory for not explaining the origin of atoms.

I guess this is what religious bias can do to one's thinking.

Peter :)
 
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Cassiterides

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Alright, lets compare two phrases and play spot the difference.
1- The origin of species
2- The origin of life
These are seperate for a reason.

I don't see them as seperate. According to the theory of evolution you have to start at one specie. What then created this?

Or are there some evolutionists who believe not everything shares the same ancestor? This would be odd though, since everyone i have encountered talks about how since how most animals have eyes, ears etc as do humans that this proves we came from the same ancestor. The creationist argument would be of course we just share the same designer.
 
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Cassiterides

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You're contradicting yourself. If they say "I don't know" obviously they don't think they have all the answers.

No atheists think they have all the answers prior to being asked ''how did life originate'', after this question is asked they then shut up or change the topic. Either that or they then start attacking creationists, usually with their dribble like ''how did all the animals fit on the ark'' or another stupid question which has nothing whatsoever to do with the question ''how did life originate''. Seen it all before so many times.
 
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Exiledoomsayer

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I don't see them as seperate. According to the theory of evolution you have to start at one specie. What then created this?
Take another look at the murder case analogy to see why they are seperate. If you still have questions i do not mind explaining why they are but first id like to know if you are able to accept that just because you do not see them as seperate does not mean they are the same.
Or are there some evolutionists who believe not everything shares the same ancestor? This would be odd though, since everyone i have encountered talks about how since how most animals have eyes, ears etc as do humans that this proves we came from the same ancestor. The creationist argument would be of course we just share the same designer.
Yes that would be the creationist arguement. Also there are quite a few christians that believe god created the first cell <mind you, evolution does not start at the first cell, it starts at the first replicatable lifeforms which is quite a few steps lower> and let evolution go from there. so there is quite a bit of different interpretation of the genesis story.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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No atheists think they have all the answers prior to being asked ''how did life originate'', after this question is asked they then shut up or change the topic. Either that or they then start attacking creationists, usually with their dribble like ''how did all the animals fit on the ark'' or another stupid question which has nothing whatsoever to do with the question ''how did life originate''. Seen it all before so many times.
Did you mean evolutionists?
 
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plindboe

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No atheists think they have all the answers prior to being asked ''how did life originate'', after this question is asked they then shut up or change the topic. Either that or they then start attacking creationists, usually with their dribble like ''how did all the animals fit on the ark'' or another stupid question which has nothing whatsoever to do with the question ''how did life originate''. Seen it all before so many times.

No one, but the most arrogant people, assert that they know how life started. Ask adherents from the thousands of different religions, and you get thousands of different answers all proclaimed with the same fervent certitude. Please try some humility and honesty. The world will be a much nicer place.

About the origin of life, there are various hypotheses. Some are very interesting, and certainly much more detailed than the creation story you can find in Genesis, but undetailed answers doesn't satisfy scientists, and there's alot more work to do before a scientific theory about the origin of life will reach any kind of concensus.

This video offers some interesting ideas:

YouTube - The Origin of Life - Abiogenesis - Dr. Jack Szostak

Peter :)
 
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Split Rock

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My point was that the theory of evolution stops at the cell. By cell i mean evolutionists ultimately believe we started as a cell or something as small, but they can't explain anything before that. This is clearly a flaw since evolution can not answer what created the cell.
How is it that a theory concerning the origin of species is flawed if it does not address the orign of life?

You keep asking about "evolutionists"... what do you mean by this? 99.9% of scientists accept the theory of evolution as the best explanation for the diversity and distribution of life.

Since evolutionists start at the cell, they must believe in a form of creationism? Since they accept the cell could not have evolved because there could be nothing smaller to have evolved from.
Most scientists believe that life came about via abiogenesis on the primitive earth under reducing conditions. There are a number of hypotheses concerning how, but none have sufficient evidence behind them to be accepted as theory.

Well there arn't really different intepretations on the scripture regarding the creation, there is just different interpretations on the time involved hence why you have Old, Gap, Progressive and Young Creationists but all accept the creation account. The dispute of time only happened in the 19th century when men like Hutton and Lyell put forward their ideas of old earth geology, this then converted many Young Earther's to believe in Old Earth Creationism.
I think you are forgetting the majority of Christians, who are Theistic Evolutionists. They do not interpret Genesis as a literal history, but as allegorical stories meant to teach theological concepts.
 
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plindboe

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That clip is so on the money.

Indeed. I'm not an expert on abiogenesis, but I've encountered lots of the ideas and biochemical facts presented in the video separately. I like how it ties them all together in an easy to understand video.

I'm sure there are still big difficulties to overcome, so one shouldn't get the impression that everything has been worked out. But as I hinted in my last post, this scientific "creation account" is vastly more detailed than the one presented in Genesis, and it's based on actual facts and experiments.

Peter :)
 
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Hespera

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So the cell just appeared? What came before the cell? If you start at the cell, then you must be some form of a creationist since you acknowledge it did not evolve from anything smaller.



You didn't even answer how evolution explains the conscience...this was precisely why Darwin had rivals in his day like Alfred Wallace who believed the conscience could not be explained by evolution.



I've never made anything up that is not true in this thread. On the contrary i even admitted creationism can not be proven by the scientific method (and i'm a creationist) since we can't go back in time to observe it or replicate how it was done.


Maybe someone else made this up.."Yes, since they are so ignorant they think they have all the answers.....". It is one of several similar statements. If you want to talk issues fine; if you want to make up ad homs about people you dont know, thats not cool.

You q. about "so the cell just happened?"..... no.

If your idea here is to look for simple "gotchas" then Im not interested in playing. if you'd like to learn something, I can help.

Nobody in his right mind would say something like that. You, or someone, just made that up.

I guess, tho that you really know next to nothing about evolution so it SEEMS a reasonable q; so let me explain.

1. organic molecules of many sorts self assemble under a variety of natural and lab conditions. Some of them quite large and complex.

They are not alive, but they are components of living organisms.

2. There is no bright line distinction between living and non living. We can tell a frog from a rock, yes. But how about prions, and viruses. they are not classified as being alive..do you know anything about them?

They represent a grey area between life and non life.

3. Nobody does or can know what happened, exactly, 3 billion years ago.
But chemistry is pretty well understood, and what happened was chemistry. Nothing about the spontaneous formation of life in any way contradicts the known principles of how chemistry works.

4. The earliest near life forms, life forms would not be cells. You would have self replicating molecules. Interesting, not extraordinary.

5. Out of the fantastic number of trillions of molecules, and with the speed with which chemical reactions take place, any thing that CAN happen will happen.

Your "if you start with the cell" is just completely a mistaken idea. so just drop it.

Regarding things like conscience, you are talking science form 150 years ago. They barely knew that electricity exists.

The ToE, at this point does not have to be able to explain the origin of conscience in order for the theory to be valid. it does explain all known related data; no related data contradicts it.

The earliest "brains" go back to things like worms. Fish have better brains, reptiles, birds, mammals, better ones.

A crocodile is not known to show any sort of conscience. Dog owners will tell you that dogs do. They feel joy, fear, jealousy, and guilt.

There are some interesting questions like how the mind develops and works. I dont know of anyone but people who are searching for a way to dismiss evolution who think it is a gotcha, tho.

There are also interesting questions like how do you account for the detailed sequence of changes in all life forms over time.... if not with evolution.
 
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Hespera

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I don't see them as seperate. According to the theory of evolution you have to start at one specie. What then created this?

Or are there some evolutionists who believe not everything shares the same ancestor? This would be odd though, since everyone i have encountered talks about how since how most animals have eyes, ears etc as do humans that this proves we came from the same ancestor. The creationist argument would be of course we just share the same designer.


How you happen to see it, along with 4 bucks, will get something at Starbucks. You dont get to define science to your liking, just so you can 'falsify" it.

Please btw stop using the word "evolutionist" unless you want me to call you a knee jerk theo creologist. Ok?

you made up another, or someone else made it up for you, falsehood.

ToE does NOT say we all started as a single "specie".


"are there some evolutionists who believe not everything shares the same ancestor? This would be odd though, since everyone i have encountered talks about how since how most animals have eyes, ears etc "

Please restate the above in some other way? (omit the word 'evolutionist" please). I honeslty have no idea what you are getting at with this.
I cant even guess what it is you find odd, or what you are talking about.
 
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LifeToTheFullest!

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In my opinion there's no such thing as abiogenesis.
That's exactly what I'm trying to say. If abiogenesis were true, every once in a while when you open a jar of peanut butter, we should see life, and we never do. Therefore, abiogenesis is false.
 
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Hespera

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No atheists think they have all the answers prior to being asked ''how did life originate'', after this question is asked they then shut up or change the topic. Either that or they then start attacking creationists, usually with their dribble like ''how did all the animals fit on the ark'' or another stupid question which has nothing whatsoever to do with the question ''how did life originate''. Seen it all before so many times.


Now you are getting kind of obnoxious with your making things up. Stop it!

I am real sure I know more atheists than you do, and i sure as heck know more scientists and grad students. i NEVER heard anyone say anything remotely like that... and here you are implying that they ALL do.


Dribble? getting obnoxious here.

What someone said to you, what you claim someone said has no bearing on the ToE. so please keep it to that, i really dont care to hear about
what you think someone else said on some other subject some other time.

You dont by the way see us "shutting up" or "changing the topic."

dont you change it either. You want to learn something about evoluiton stick to the topic. You want to be insulting and talk about 'dribble" well go do it elsewhere. But remember, talking like that says far more about you than it does anyone else.

Can we have a cease on the personal stuff and stick to issues?
 
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Cassiterides

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The ToE, at this point does not have to be able to explain the origin of conscience in order for the theory to be valid. it does explain all known related data; no related data contradicts it.

Theory of evolution can not explain conscience or non-material things like sleep i.e dreams. How about love? Does evolution assert love is then just a chemical in the brain? I doubt Dawkins even is that materialistic. So that's three things evolution can not even adress to answer.

Other than that i have a whole tun of intelligent design evidence against evolution but i'll only post it if you bother to honestly read it, not just automatically dismiss it.
 
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Hespera

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That's exactly what I'm trying to say. If abiogenesis were true, every once in a while when you open a jar of peanut butter, we should see life, and we never do. Therefore, abiogenesis is false.


If huge meteors hitting the earth were true, we'd see it now and the; we dont, so the idea is false.

We never see platypus here in the midwest; i dont think they exist anywhere.

I never see any amoeba either, unless i am looking thru a microscope; therefore they never exist except when i am looking.

wonder what else is not true.
 
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Hespera

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Theory of evolution can not explain conscience or non-material things like sleep i.e dreams. How about love? Does evolution assert love is then just a chemical in the brain? I doubt Dawkins even is that materialistic. So that's three things evolution can not even adress to answer.

Other than that i have a whole tun of intelligent design evidence against evolution but i'll only post it if you bother to honestly read it, not just automatically dismiss it.


That is the total of your response to things i took some little time writing for you?

I gave you the start on an answer to your question about the mind; you edit that out, ignore it like I said nothing,, and then add a bunch of rhetorical questions

then you give me this stuff about "bother to honestly read it not just automatically dismiss it".



you know what? You really dont know a thing, you just play cut and paste with pratts from creo sites. You want to grow up and learn something, i will help you. you want to play mud fight with duelling websites, forget it.

ta;l tp ,e about looking at things honeslty!

i've seen a lot of ID stuff and never saw one thing that made any sense.
 
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