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Science vs. Evolution (2)

lucaspa

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Meaning what? that there is no answer to my question?

"Soul" is a theological concept, not a scientific one. No scientist (or theologian) has ever been able to detect or measure a "soul". So evolution says nothing about it because it can't.

The closest science gets to "soul" is Near Death Experiences, but so far that is all that is studied -- NDE. No one knows how or why or what is doing the experiencing during an NDE.
 
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lucaspa

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Are you a closet-YEC or something?

You've got to be kidding. Cassiterides, your reading comprehension must be better than this. Hespera is an atheist.

Because you seem to stalk us around the net, joining our forums...odd

Whose forums? Christians? Lots of atheists do that. Lots of theists join atheist forums. Hespera is allowed to post in this section.
 
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lucaspa

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Casseritides, don't we have unfinished business about the "carboniferous skull" discovered and promoted by Ed Conrad? I've been doing some research.

First, Conrad and Liangtai Lin do not meet your criteria of "repeatable" for science. Conrad took the "skull" to the Smithsonian. Several paleontologists examined it at that time and concluded it was a mineral concretion, not a fossil. Conrad didn't like that idea and searched until he found someone -- a dentist -- to tell him it looked like a skull. He e-mailed a lot of people and put up a website: Welcome to edconrad.com He then spammed a lot. One example: SMITHSONIAN, KINDLY HIDE YOUR HEAD IN SHAME ONLY Lin responded positively.

For instance, Lin then sent pictures of the "fossils" to PZ Myers. Myers informed him that they were not fossils at all: The Chinese Ed Conrad : Pharyngula

However, Lin reports that Myers (and McCrae) examined the fossils at a microscopic level! Myers and McRae never did.

Lin reports haversian canals in microscopic examination of the skull and femur. Links to pictures are here: Wretch Fossil: A human skull cap of 300 million years ago
However, the pictures do not look anything like haversian systems in bones from living species or fossils. Some examples of pictures of real haversian canals in fossil bones can be seen here:
http://www.hunterian.gla.ac.uk/archive/museum.oldsite/dinosaur/images/ts1.jpg
http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/biobk/bonesec.gif
Google Image Result for http://www.bmb.leeds.ac.uk/illingworth/bioc3800/bone.jpg
http://www.actavetscand.com/content/figures/1751-0147-50-15-1.gif

What Lin has are pores in the rock. Similarly, his "neurons" are crystal formations.

What we have here is similar to the Piltdown fraud. We have a fraud trying to be perpetrated on scientists, not by scientists. The differences are

1. that this is not a practical joke, but an attempt at fraud to attack science.
2. no paleontologist has been suckered by the fraud.
3. the fraud is so poorly done that we can see right away that it is fraud.
4. unfortunately, since the motivation comes from outside the scientific community, simply showing that this is not a fossil and that it is wrong is not going to stop people from promoting this as valid.
 
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AV1611VET

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"Soul" is a theological concept, not a scientific one.
And why is that?

Do all truths start off as a "theological concept", until science gives it the green light?

I realize science deals only with things that can be detected and quantified by their instruments, but where does that leave God?

Standing at the [lab] door and knocking?
 
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sandwiches

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And why is that?

Do all truths start off as a "theological concept", until science gives it the green light?

I realize science deals only with things that can be detected and quantified by their instruments, but where does that leave God?
Precisely.

Standing at the [lab] door and knocking?
Is this a complaint about us not being able to detect God? Or is it a complaint about science not 'letting' God in or what?

I mean, if we can't detect something, we can't detect it. There's nothing we can do, at the moment, that will detect God, if he exists. So, what do you propose we do about it?
 
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lucaspa

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And why is that?

Because there is nothing measurable or detectable about the soul. Philosophers speculated about "soul" long before there was science.

Do all truths start off as a "theological concept", until science gives it the green light?

No. Many truths are never part of science, but we consider them truths. Some truths start off as science and are never theological. Atoms for example.

I realize science deals only with things that can be detected and quantified by their instruments, but where does that leave God?

Science is agnostic as far as God is concerned. Stephen Gould summed it up:
" To say it for all my colleageues and for the umpteenth millionth time (from college bull sessions to learned treatises): science simply cannot (by its legitimate methods) adjudicate the issue of God's possible superintendence of nature. We neither affirm nor deny it; we simply can't comment on it as scientists." SJ Gould, Impeaching a self-appointed judge. Scientific American, 267:79-80, July 1992.

There are a couple of reasons for this. Science does not only deal with things that can be detected "by their instruments". Instead, all evidence is personal experience: what we see, hear, touch, smell, taste, or feel emotionally. Science can and does deal with the last, and emotions are things that we usually don't take the time or effort to detect by CAT scan.

But most importantly, science limits itself to evidence (personal experience) that is the same for everyone under approximately the same circumstances. This is called "intersubjective". The personal experience of God -- whether in scripture or by individuals -- is not intersubjective. You and I cannot go to the Red Sea, raise our arms in the air, call upon God, and have the waters part. The experience of the Hebrews during the Exodus is not intersubjective. Therefore it is not part of science. Paul's experience of the risen Christ is not intersubjective. People today report experience of God, but it is not intersubjective.

Standing at the [lab] door and knocking?

Not exactly. God doesn't have to be validated by science, does He?

AV, there are a couple of ways to look at science's agnosticism.

First, and the way Christians look at it, is that God has 2 books: scripture and Creation. Science reads the book of Creation. Thus, everything science finds tells us how God created. Sometimes it may also tell us other things about God.

Second, people can try to sneak God into science by the back door. They can propose a material method by which God works. Science can then test the material method. Creationism is one way to try to sneak God into science by the back door. Creationism says God created by manufacturing humans and other species, or parts of them, or other things, in their present form. Science then looks to see if these things were indeed manufactured in their present form. Flood Geology proposed that God caused a world-wide flood, and then the flood caused geological features. The flood was the material method.

The problem with doing that is that science only tests the material cause. So what happens when the material cause is shown to be wrong or not have happened? Do you conclude that God does not exist? Many people do, which is why they are so threatened by the falsification of creationism (evolution). But really, God was never tested. Only the material method was tested. God could create another way. And did.
 
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Cassiterides

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Casseritides, don't we have unfinished business about the "carboniferous skull" discovered and promoted by Ed Conrad? I've been doing some research.

First, Conrad and Liangtai Lin do not meet your criteria of "repeatable" for science. Conrad took the "skull" to the Smithsonian. Several paleontologists examined it at that time and concluded it was a mineral concretion, not a fossil. Conrad didn't like that idea and searched until he found someone -- a dentist -- to tell him it looked like a skull.

I don't know who Ed Conrad is. The difference between creationist and evolutionist frauds though, is that the latter enter science textbooks. You can still find Haeckel's fraudulent drawings in modern textbooks in science classes. Something is clearly wrong with the system.
 
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Cabal

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I don't know who Ed Conrad is. The difference between creationist and evolutionist frauds though, is that the latter enter science textbooks. You can still find Haeckel's fraudulent drawings in modern textbooks in science classes. Something is clearly wrong with the system.

Are you sure? Firstly, this is one case published case we're discussing here, out of all the controversial ones. Secondly, Haeckel wasn't completely wrong - the exaggerated drawings are false, yes, as embryos do not recapitulate their evolutionary history. The similarity between different embryos however, he was bang on on that, so there is no problem placing that in a textbook. Perhaps you should learn to distinguish between the two cases instead of listening to the propaganda of clueless creationists.
 
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