Science is messy.

Mountainmike

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Once a creationist has committed to
a position it's impossible for them to
admit it's wrong. Least of all to a - shudder-
atheist.
Stop hijacking my thread with off topic irrelevance.
Either comment on scientific process ( if you have anything useful to say) or do not comment at all.

If you want to debate creation go to the creation/evolution forum. If you want to insult creationists, I doubt they will respond.
If you want to make a personal statement of your beliefs as above. Try the introduction thread. There is no forum for atheist scientism here. You confuse your scientism philosophy with the process of science.

This is a science forum. Keep to that.
 
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AV1611VET

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My statement is Science is fundamentally messy.
It is not nearly the idealized process just comprised of "hypothesis, theory" taught to 8th graders.
So discuss.

From Amasci:

There is no single list called "The Scientific Method." It is a myth.

The rules of a science-fair typically require that students follow THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD, or in other words, hypothesis-experiment-conclusion. The students must propose a hypothesis and test it by experiment. This supposedly is the "Scientific Method" used by all scientists. Supposedly, if you don't follow the rigidly defined "Scientific Method" listed in K-6 textbooks, then you're not doing science. (Some science fairs even ban astronomy and paleontology projects. After all, where's the "experiment" in these?)

Unfortunately this is wrong, and there is no single "Scientific Method" as such. Scientists don't follow a rigid procedure-list called "The Scientific Method" in their daily work. The procedure-list is a myth spread by K-6 texts. It is an extremely widespread myth, and even some scientists have been taken in by it, but this doesn't make it any more real. "The Scientific Method" is part of school and school books, and is not how science in general is done. Real scientists use a large variety of methods (perhaps call them methods of science rather than "The Scientific Method.") Hypothesis / experiment / conclusion is one of these, and it's very important in experimental science such as physics and chemistry, but it's certainly not the only method. It would be a mistake to elevate it above all others. We shouldn't force children to memorize any such procedure list. And we shouldn't use it to exclude certain types of projects from science fairs! If "The Scientific Method" listed in a grade school textbook proves that Astronomy is not a science, then it's the textbook which is wrong, not Astronomy.
"Ask a scientist what he conceives the scientific method to be and he adopts an expression that is at once solemn and shifty-eyed: solemn, because he feels he ought to declare an opinion; shifty-eyed because he is wondering how to conceal the fact that he has no opinion to declare." - Sir Peter Medawar
There are many parts of science that cannot easily be forced into the mold of "hypothesis-experiment-conclusion." Astronomy is not an experimental science, and Paleontologists don't perform Paleontology experiments... so is it not proper Science if you study stars or classify extinct creatures?


Or, if a scientist has a good idea for designing a brand new kind of measurement instrument (e.g. Newton and the reflecting telescope) ...that certainly is "doing science." Humphrey Davy says "Nothing tends so much to the advancement of knowledge as the application of a new instrument." But where is The Hypothesis? Where is The Experiment? The Atomic Force Microscope (STM/AFM) revolutionized science. Yet if a student invented the very first reflector telescope or the very first AFM, wouldn't such a device be rejected from many school science fairs? After all, it's not an experiment, and the lists called "Scientific Method" say nothing about exploratory observation. Some science teachers would reject the STM as science; calling it 'mere engineering,' yet like the Newtonian reflector, the tunneling microscope is a revolution that opened up an entire new branch of science. Since it's instrument-inventing, not hypothesis-testing, should we exclude it as science? Were the creators of the STM not doing science when they came up with that device? In defining Science, the Nobel prize committee disagrees with the science teachers and science fair judges. The researchers who created the STM won the 1986 Nobel prize in physics. I'd say that if someone wins a Nobel prize in physics, it's a good bet that their work qualifies as "science."

Forcing kids to follow a caricature of scientific research distorts science, and it really isn't necessary in the first place.

Another example: great discoveries often come about when scientists notice anomalies. They see something inexplicable during older research, and that triggers some new research. Or sometimes they notice something weird out in Nature; something not covered by modern theory. Isaac Asimov said it well:
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny...' "
This suggests that lots of important science comes NOT from proposing hypotheses or even from performing experiments, but instead comes from unguided observation and curiosity-driven exploration: from sniffing about while learning to see what nobody else can see. Scientific discovery comes from something resembling "informed messing around," or unguided play. Yet the "Scientific Method" listed in textbooks says nothing about this, their lists start out with "form a hypothesis." As a result, educators treat science as deadly serious business, and "messing around" is sometimes dealt with harshly.

SOURCE
 
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Mountainmike

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From Amasci:

There is no single list called "The Scientific Method." It is a myth.

The rules of a science-fair typically require that students follow THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD, or in other words, hypothesis-experiment-conclusion. The students must propose a hypothesis and test it by experiment. This supposedly is the "Scientific Method" used by all scientists. Supposedly, if you don't follow the rigidly defined "Scientific Method" listed in K-6 textbooks, then you're not doing science. (Some science fairs even ban astronomy and paleontology projects. After all, where's the "experiment" in these?)

Unfortunately this is wrong, and there is no single "Scientific Method" as such. Scientists don't follow a rigid procedure-list called "The Scientific Method" in their daily work. The procedure-list is a myth spread by K-6 texts. It is an extremely widespread myth, and even some scientists have been taken in by it, but this doesn't make it any more real. "The Scientific Method" is part of school and school books, and is not how science in general is done. Real scientists use a large variety of methods (perhaps call them methods of science rather than "The Scientific Method.") Hypothesis / experiment / conclusion is one of these, and it's very important in experimental science such as physics and chemistry, but it's certainly not the only method. It would be a mistake to elevate it above all others. We shouldn't force children to memorize any such procedure list. And we shouldn't use it to exclude certain types of projects from science fairs! If "The Scientific Method" listed in a grade school textbook proves that Astronomy is not a science, then it's the textbook which is wrong, not Astronomy.
"Ask a scientist what he conceives the scientific method to be and he adopts an expression that is at once solemn and shifty-eyed: solemn, because he feels he ought to declare an opinion; shifty-eyed because he is wondering how to conceal the fact that he has no opinion to declare." - Sir Peter Medawar
There are many parts of science that cannot easily be forced into the mold of "hypothesis-experiment-conclusion." Astronomy is not an experimental science, and Paleontologists don't perform Paleontology experiments... so is it not proper Science if you study stars or classify extinct creatures?


Or, if a scientist has a good idea for designing a brand new kind of measurement instrument (e.g. Newton and the reflecting telescope) ...that certainly is "doing science." Humphrey Davy says "Nothing tends so much to the advancement of knowledge as the application of a new instrument." But where is The Hypothesis? Where is The Experiment? The Atomic Force Microscope (STM/AFM) revolutionized science. Yet if a student invented the very first reflector telescope or the very first AFM, wouldn't such a device be rejected from many school science fairs? After all, it's not an experiment, and the lists called "Scientific Method" say nothing about exploratory observation. Some science teachers would reject the STM as science; calling it 'mere engineering,' yet like the Newtonian reflector, the tunneling microscope is a revolution that opened up an entire new branch of science. Since it's instrument-inventing, not hypothesis-testing, should we exclude it as science? Were the creators of the STM not doing science when they came up with that device? In defining Science, the Nobel prize committee disagrees with the science teachers and science fair judges. The researchers who created the STM won the 1986 Nobel prize in physics. I'd say that if someone wins a Nobel prize in physics, it's a good bet that their work qualifies as "science."

Forcing kids to follow a caricature of scientific research distorts science, and it really isn't necessary in the first place.

Another example: great discoveries often come about when scientists notice anomalies. They see something inexplicable during older research, and that triggers some new research. Or sometimes they notice something weird out in Nature; something not covered by modern theory. Isaac Asimov said it well:
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny...' "
This suggests that lots of important science comes NOT from proposing hypotheses or even from performing experiments, but instead comes from unguided observation and curiosity-driven exploration: from sniffing about while learning to see what nobody else can see. Scientific discovery comes from something resembling "informed messing around," or unguided play. Yet the "Scientific Method" listed in textbooks says nothing about this, their lists start out with "form a hypothesis." As a result, educators treat science as deadly serious business, and "messing around" is sometimes dealt with harshly.

SOURCE
Spot on this.

“This suggests that lots of important science comes NOT from proposing hypotheses or even from performing experiments, but instead comes from unguided observation and curiosity-driven exploration”

Add some lucky accidents! ( equivalent to happening to be under the tree when the Apple hits you on the head) And asking the question why!
 
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Ophiolite

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“ The observation doesn't disappear for lack of a hypothesis. Rather it inspires the desire to find a plausible hypothesis.”
Eureka We agree. But the plausible hypothesis is only after refining evidence. Discovering what affects the observations.

I’m giving you a description of science practice.
Someone notices, that is evidence.

What shape are galaxies? “That shape. Here is the evidence they are that shape.”

Do they match mass/ gravity prediction? No. Not by a long way.

The evidence of what shape they are stands Regardless of not matching prediction.
Whether or not anyone ever comes up with a hypothesis for the discrepancy.

The effort to research the pattern is science , just as much as the attempt to find a hypothesis
. Indeed refining the evidence is much of the problem long before there is a hypothesis.

Experimental laws ( eg Boyle, Charles ) even are JUST a pattern, not a hypothesis of why the pattern exists,
science can get all the way to laws without a hypothesis!

in that case refining the model to include the “kinetic theory of gases “ was the hypothesis, then theory compatible with the experimental laws.
Precision of language is important in science. I regret you seemingly don't agree. Calling an observation evidence is a sloppy colloquialism.

P.S. Laws may be thought of as related observations encapsulated within a heuristic.

And this time I really am done with this. Feel free to have the last word. Have as many as you like. Word abuse is not illegal.
 
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AV1611VET

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Spot on this.
“This suggests that lots of important science comes NOT from proposing hypotheses or even from performing experiments, but instead comes from unguided observation and curiosity-driven exploration”

Add some lucky accidents! ( equivalent to happening to be under the tree when the Apple hits you on the head!)

When Thalidomide was invented, scientists used to use lab rats for their experiments as, according to evolution, they were the closest to simulating the human being.

Two polar exceptions are:

1. Aspirin -- benefited mankind, but caused deformities in mice births

2. Thalidomide -- did nothing to mice, but caused deformities in human births

The [assumption] was that, since Thalidomide did nothing to mice births, it would do nothing to human births.

(Notice I put "assumption" in brackets.)
 
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AV1611VET

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Calling an observation evidence is a sloppy colloquialism.

When deformed children started showing up due to Thalidomide, was observing them a "sloppy colloquialism" as well?
 
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Bradskii

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Off topic. Stop hijacking my thread.
Put some thought into it, Mike. It will come up again and you will be asked about it. Best to have a response available...
 
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Mountainmike

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Put some thought into it, Mike. It will come up again and you will be asked about it. Best to have a response available...
This thread is about scientific process On a science forum.
if you want to ask a question about evolution do it on an evolution thread On an evolution forum.

but a word of advice - I recommend you study science - In particular Einstein’s comments.
“ If I had an hour to solve a problem and my life depended on the solution, I would spend the first 55 minutes determining the proper question to ask, for once I know the proper question, I could solve the problem in less than five minutes.”

So far you have not given a definition of life, your definition of evolution ,( it is not a single theory) and the nature or extent to which you think your personal definition of evolution played a role in the journey of develoment of your definition of life, so so far you have not asked an answerable question. Like Einstein - My answer depends on the question.
 
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Ophiolite

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When deformed children started showing up due to Thalidomide, was observing them a "sloppy colloquialism" as well?
Ranch dressing used as a substitute for musical notation will have as much impact on the planet as your inanity and warped obsessions.
 
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Mountainmike

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Ranch dressing used as a substitute for musical notation will have as much impact on the planet as your inanity and warped obsessions.
@AV1611VET made a very valid point on the nature of evidence in respect of thalidomide.
how dare you insult him?

i guess we should tell the authors of all the physical chemistry books that include the experimental laws to call them by your preposterous word “ heuristic” used way out of context.

Meanwhile evidence is characterised long before hypothesis.
There are detailed mathematical models of Galaxy shapes.
The blue light of curies radium solution had a measured spectrum long before anyone could postulate why.

I guess as a non scientist you have no idea of the evidence gathering and characterisation processes.
but since you Don’t , please stop using sloppy colloquialisms to characterise scientific process. .
 
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Mountainmike

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...in allele frequency
And that is the problem with inadequate statement of a question.


Man has been intelligent designing plants and domestic animals for years by using the genetic inheritance mechanisms he has observed to increase "allele frequency". Who can disagree with that? That is the problem. Evolution is not a single theory. It is a collection of ideas in various states of conjecture and proof.

I suspect you associate far greater significance to the word "evolution" than that. I point again to what I said to @Bradskii about what Einstein said he would do if forced to answer a question in one hour! He would focus on the right question.

But it still doesnt belong on this thread.

Were you not aware of Lanciano? with your "forgotten in 10 years " statement. Still going strong after 1000
 
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