Science Double Standards

[Umaro]

It seems to me that with the religious, Science is only correct when it does not conflict with the Bible. No one disputes the heliocentric solar system, the laws of physic, televisions, phones, anything we use on a daily basis, and whatnot. However, when something disagrees with Bible teachings, it is automatically "just a theory" and is therefore wrong. There are literally thousands of facts that all point to it, but Science has somehow made a mistake on this one issue. I'm sure there are other examples too. Why is Science only wrong on aspects that disagree with religion?

As a second question, I would like to know why Christians go to doctors when they are sick. I know this sounds like a stupid question, but I constantly hear of miraculous claims of answered prayers because someone who was sick got better, but somehow it is always God's doing and not the doctors that cured the disease. If God is going to take the time to personally cure you, why not just cure you without the aid of medical help?

 

[seajoy]

Umaro,

You have asked all these questions in numerous threads. Are you really seeking answers?

Christians (if you haven't figured it out by now) answer with the bible as our guide.

Global warming has nothing to do with religion, yet we don't really know if it's happening...so your first statement really doesn't hold water.

Your second question...Even in the bible, a man was healed of blindness by placing mud on his eyes...another was healed of leprecy (sp?) by swimming in dirty water. God used these things for healing, but He didn't have to. He does the same today.

There is nothing you can say to make us come over to your side. There is nothing for you to prove to us. You have a lot of life to live, dear Umaro. You are so young. Don't waste your life trying to show Christians why they are so dumb.

Jesus loves you, and wants to hold you forever in His arms, as your loving savior. Please look at what I'm telling you. Christ is calling you, or you wouldn't keep coming back here.

seajoy

 

[prophecystudent]

It seems to me that with the religious, Science is only correct when it does not conflict with the Bible. No one disputes the heliocentric solar system, the laws of physic, televisions, phones, anything we use on a daily basis, and whatnot. However, when something disagrees with Bible teachings, it is automatically "just a theory" and is therefore wrong.

Two issues as an example. Evolution (which I suspect is one of your "examples"). Even Darwin, who proposed it called it a theory. He based his POSSIBLE explanation on what he perceived to be evidence. The problem was that he used limited evidence which ignored more than it included.

Darwin would have us believe that mankind was not created. Our bible says that God created mankind. Darwin said we evolved out of the primeval slime. Neither Darwin, nor his modern day adherents, can explain where that primeval slime came from. Who created it? No need to go into all the arguments against creation as that is not your question.

The second is global warming.

The media is full of supposed reports written largely by people who have a huge financial interest in fostering the concept that mankind is destroying the earth by causing global warming. The truth is much simpler than that.

If there is global warming, and there has been no PROOF of that, then how is mankind the cause?

The chicken-little crowd totally ignores tons of evidence that (even if the planet is getting warmer) man has nothing to do with it. I will ask you one question (which none of them have bothered to answer).

If mankind is causing global warming, how do you explain the 17 different ice ages that real hard evidence shows the earth experienced? Remember that between each ice age was an age of warming, and not a single SUV or power generation station was in existence then.

I am a fairly logical person with a fairly broad education. I expect to see facts that are related to the conclusions drawn if I am expected to believe those conclusions. To date, the two examples above have never had any REAL FACTS presented to support their arguments.


There are literally thousands of facts that all point to it, but Science has somehow made a mistake on this one issue. I'm sure there are other examples too. Why is Science only wrong on aspects that disagree with religion?

Who said science is wrong? Do you mean to say that because someone uses JUNK SCIENCE, or no science at all, and claims to have proven his point that it is science? Not at all. The world has an over abundance of "scientists", manyof whom have little idea of what they are talking about. The current panic over global warming is a classic example.

A group of people with a common, monetary, interest get together, among them are some METEOROLOGISTS, who by one definition are scientists. They state that the planet is getting warmer and cite some figures to prove it. Meterorologist predict the weather. They are not climatologists who study climates and climate changes. Weather forecasters cannot tell us what the weather will be like the day after tomorrow (some have trouble with tomorrow), and yet they would have us believe their story with no scientific evidence. The bible tells us to be sceptical and look at evidence. That is what any rational person does, even without the bible. For you to make a blanket statement that Christians deny science, or scientific conclusions in less than accurate, and seems to reflect a bias on your part.



As a second question, I would like to know why Christians go to doctors when they are sick. I know this sounds like a stupid question, but I constantly hear of miraculous claims of answered prayers because someone who was sick got better, but somehow it is always God's doing and not the doctors that cured the disease. If God is going to take the time to personally cure you, why not just cure you without the aid of medical help?

You are correct, it sounds like a stupid question. Having said that I would elaborate. God can heal anyone He chooses, using any method He chooses. If that includes a trip to the doctor, why should you care? I personally know of miraculous healings that I have witnessed. I also know of a lot of healing caused by knowlegeable doctors using cures provided by God.

As one of the other responders to this thread suggested, perhaps you would benefit more in your pursuit of wisdom about Christianity if you spent more of your time actually studying the topic.

I do not mean to insult you or put you down, but the tone, frequency and subject of many of your questions tends to turn people off.

If you are truly seeking "answers" I suggest you spend some time in a good Sunday School or bible study group. Barring that, get yourself enrolled in a bible correspondence course (provided by a reputable source) and start your studies. I can assure you that you will learn more, faster, of the truth than you will ever get asking questions on an internet forum.

I have been reading the bible for many years. I recently enrolled in a 2 year bible correspondence course, and continue (every day) to be surprised by the insight I receive. And I can truthfully say that I have read the bible from cover to cover at least 5 or 6 times.

In Christ

Fred

 

[Catherineanne]

Why is Science only wrong on aspects that disagree with religion?

It isn't. Science is about theories, which remain as valid theories until they are disproven by better theories.

This has nothing to do with religion, which is not about theories which are capable of being proven or disproven.

Ergo, the two cannot be compared. Doesn't stop people doing it, but it is meaningless if they do.

As a second question, I would like to know why Christians go to doctors when they are sick.

Because God put the doctors there in the first place. I am happy to pray to God for recovery, but this would by no means stop me going to a doctor.

Then, if the doctor gave me whatever I needed to get better, I would thank him or her for the prescription, and I would thank the chemist who provides it for me, and I would thank God for both.

One point to remember, whether a person has a religious faith or not, is that the body is a truly remarkable thing, with the most amazing capacity to heal itself. If this comes from God it is a great gift. Even if it is only a gift of nature, then it is also something to be aware of. Miracles of healing happen every day, for all of us.

 

[Seekermeister]

In the accounts of Jesus healing various people, some were healed simply because He said so. Some were healed after they did something that they believed would help. And others after they did something that Jesus told them to do. The common factor in all of these, was faith...faith in God. Therefore, it really doesn't matter what a person might use on the road to healing, if it is grounded in a faith in God, and that afterward that they understand where the actual healing came from.

 

[BelindaP]

Some Christians would go so far as to say Science is wrong if it conflicts with the Bible. Most others would state that Science doesn't tell the whole story, or scientific results are being misinterpreted.

As for why Christians go to a doctor when we are sick. Why do we use cars to drive around or matches to light fires? God gave us the intellect to invent or discover these things as tools to make our lives better.

God does do miracles. He helps those who cannot be healed by human knowledge. However, he expects us to have enough sense when we are sick to go to the doctor. Your question reminds me of an old fable.

A man was living in a part of the country that was indunated with floods. Before the flood waters approached, the police made rounds ordering people to evacuate immediately. The man responded, "God will protect me."

When the water was lapping at his doorstep, people came by in boats to rescue him. His response--"God will protect me."

Finally, he was stranded on his roof, and a helicopter came by to rescue him. His response was, "God will protect me."

The flood waters rose and he drowned. When he got to heaven, he asked God, "Why didn't you protect me?" God's response to him was "I sent three sets of people to rescue you and you didn't go with any of them. What more did you want?"

 

[jrmronald]

Some science is correct and others are false. Theories about
the big bang evolution are false. If you have a knowledge of logic
to have a sound argument, the premises must be true and the
conclusion must be true. Science has alot of theories were
the premises are spurious and the conclusion is false.

After the death of the apostles the Church became involved in
setting up hospitals for the sick. There are many miracles
but they are limited.
jrm

 

[Key]

Some science is correct and others are false. Theories about

It would be more along the lines of.. some science is viable.. some is not.

Science in and of itself should be neutral, not agenda driven, in the concept of the Big Bang, it is Agenda Driven.

However.. it is not science that is to blame.. it is the people that treat some Theories like they are a Religion that are to blame. When people think that Science teaches moral, or explains life, or anything like that. But more so, when people cling to a theory, or an aspect of science as if it is some kind of Holy work.

If science remained in it's pure form.. and not influenced by the ego and pride of the people that consider themselves at the top of the ladder, then it would be a better world for all.

[quoye]If you have a knowledge of logic
to have a sound argument, the premises must be true and the
conclusion must be true. Science has alot of theories were
the premises are spurious and the conclusion is false.[/quote]

True, but unlike evolution, they had the capacity to be proven false, they were not obscure unchallengeable theories.

After the death of the apostles the Church became involved in
setting up hospitals for the sick. There are many miracles
but they are limited.
jrm

I drive my car.. if I am willing to drive a car.. I am willing to drive it to the hospital. It's really simple.

God Bless

Key

 

[Umaro]

You are correct, it sounds like a stupid question. Having said that I would elaborate. God can heal anyone He chooses, using any method He chooses. If that includes a trip to the doctor, why should you care? I personally know of miraculous healings that I have witnessed. I also know of a lot of healing caused by knowlegeable doctors using cures provided by God.

As one of the other responders to this thread suggested, perhaps you would benefit more in your pursuit of wisdom about Christianity if you spent more of your time actually studying the topic.

I do not mean to insult you or put you down, but the tone, frequency and subject of many of your questions tends to turn people off.

If you are truly seeking "answers" I suggest you spend some time in a good Sunday School or bible study group. Barring that, get yourself enrolled in a bible correspondence course (provided by a reputable source) and start your studies. I can assure you that you will learn more, faster, of the truth than you will ever get asking questions on an internet forum.

I have been reading the bible for many years. I recently enrolled in a 2 year bible correspondence course, and continue (every day) to be surprised by the insight I receive. And I can truthfully say that I have read the bible from cover to cover at least 5 or 6 times.

In Christ

Fred

I've attended plenty of Sunday School lessons, and found it to be plain and simple indoctrination. I've also taken several courses on religion, including one that examined The Book of Job and the works of Thomas A. Kempis.

My point in asking about the doctors actually game from a story I heard yesterday, in which a man with a tumor was told not to seek any more medical help because Jesus had already cured him. Surprise, the tumor was still there when they looked. The question was that if you go to doctors and get healed by the doctors, why claim God's miracle? It was very probably the doctors that cured you. The only way to show it was God would be if you were cured with no outside help, or if it were something that cannot be cured. I don't exactly see God helping amputees regrow their limbs.

 

[BigNorsk]

It seems to me that with the religious, Science is only correct when it does not conflict with the Bible. No one disputes the heliocentric solar system, the laws of physic, televisions, phones, anything we use on a daily basis, and whatnot. However, when something disagrees with Bible teachings, it is automatically "just a theory" and is therefore wrong. There are literally thousands of facts that all point to it, but Science has somehow made a mistake on this one issue. I'm sure there are other examples too. Why is Science only wrong on aspects that disagree with religion?

As a second question, I would like to know why Christians go to doctors when they are sick. I know this sounds like a stupid question, but I constantly hear of miraculous claims of answered prayers because someone who was sick got better, but somehow it is always God's doing and not the doctors that cured the disease. If God is going to take the time to personally cure you, why not just cure you without the aid of medical help?

Well first, it isn't just Christians that say science is wrong, science actually does so. For instance the promotors of the Big Bang theory cannot with science as it currently stands explain the first very minute bit of time in the creation of the universe. So there is a lot of evidence that the Big Bang theory (note that scientific word, theory) comes close, but science knows that it is off, at least a little.

And we can't unify the Theory of Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. We know that something is wrong, yet it is used because it is the best models there are.

In either case, is it not a bit premature to attempt to use science that we know is wrong to "prove" the bible is wrong? People used their science back in the previous centuries to attempt to also do that, now there's been changes to all those "proofs" of past years, they were indeed wrong, not based on the bible, but based on today's science.

Now a lot of people's main complaint is with a literal 6 day creation. Many Christians do not believe that themselves, they believe that Genesis is not a literal passage.

In any case, wouldn't it be kind of neat if the reason that the Big Bang theory doesn't work right at the beginning of the Universe is because God caused it?

Now for doctors. God did and does miraculously heal, however, there is no reason not to use doctors. Sometimes God choses to work directly and sometimes he choses to work through means, such as people. God never told us to sit like a bump on a log and he'd make food and water fly into our mouths and we'd never be sick. As Christians we know that our time on earth is limited and the end of life here is not the end. But while here we are to serve God, and for many of us that means using doctors to help us do our best.

Marv

 

[marcb]

My point in asking about the doctors actually game from a story I heard yesterday, in which a man with a tumor was told not to seek any more medical help because Jesus had already cured him.

****That's an unfortunate miscalculation by a human that assumed he (or she) could pin down God's intent and actions.

Surprise, the tumor was still there when they looked. The question was that if you go to doctors and get healed by the doctors, why claim God's miracle?

****I'm in the medical profession and contend that doctors do not heal. They can intervene, but ultimately God heals. God works primarily through people who can support healing, but nobody can "cure" but God, just as nobody can create. This is predicated on the law of conservation of matter, being neither created nor destroyed.

It was very probably the doctors that cured you. The only way to show it was God would be if you were cured with no outside help, or if it were something that cannot be cured. I don't exactly see God helping amputees regrow their limbs.[/quote]

****I don't think it is mutually exclusive. If God works through people (which is why He left us with his Spirit), then I think it is reasonable to conclude that God is at work in healing. I have seen 3 situations in the hospital setting where I work when doctors themselves stated that there was nothing left to do to save a person, or that the person would never regain the ability to walk or see. I have seen the doctors give up, and there was nothing left but prayer. These people are all living, walking, seeing, and believing. Most call it a miracle, but some would never believe that. Miracles performed by Jesus himself did not "convince" those who had already made up their minds.

I have not encountered amputees regrowing limbs, but I have seen them find more courage, strength, and faith then most people who have all limbs intact. God's strength is often perfected in weakness (to quote Paul's letter to the Romans). The field of prosthetics has been motivated by many who have the spirit of compassion. People in this field have shown God-given abilities to create prostheses that help people walk, run, and return to work.

Prayer is not always answered in a way that we understand. God seems to have set up a system that relies on faith. Faith that He knows all and will ultimately care for our concerns, but perhaps in an unexpected way.

Thank you for your open-mindedness. Marc

 

[heron]

It seems to me that with the religious, Science is only correct when it does not conflict with the Bible.

With the religious? You mean the billion of Islam, the billion for Hinduism, the two billion Christian, the 400 million Buddhist, the 400 million Shinto....and on. Be careful how you word things. This generalization encompasses most of the world's population.

You are right that many religious people overreact in defense of their religious writings. These individuals are usually the most vocal, and therefore tend to stand out.

Likewise the generalization that all of Science ascribes to one belief is erroneous. Science is one of the most fluid disciplines. It is always looking at new data to reinterpret the old. Scientists do not all agree with each other, but conduct opposing research in order to find a tighter understanding of the truth.

 

[heron]

You will also find that what we hear about science does not come directly from the scientific community. Do you ever see lab scientists speak on CNN? Do the presidents drag along their team of scientists on the campaign trail.

Yes, they consult with scientists, but the information is often thirdhand, and whittled down to what will sell news and motivate backers.

A president has a scientific advisor. This person helps write the speeches, coordinate incoming requests, coordinate others' research to back claims and make wise decisions. They usually have a strong scientific-academic background, which includes research in one area of study. But their job is too broad for one person (with staff) to get the absolute scientific truth in every decision.

They consider the economy, the long-term plans of the administration, the lobbyists' requests, international issues... then this is filtered into a statement that we need to make efforts in the areas of renewable energy and emission control.

On a clash between the science advisor and a congressman --
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1766651,00.asp?kc=EWNKT0209KTX1K0100440
"Scientists were told 'keep remodelling until you get the answer we want,'" Waxman said. But he also accused the industry and administration of hiding behind ambiguity when model predictions run counter to policy goals.

Changing topics back to your second question, God really did give us doctors. In Leviticus, he gave instructions for how Levites should examine and treat people with skin and scalp diseases. The book also encourages quarantine for communicable diseases.

When we face God, it is with humility and not manipulation. We don't refuse doctors because we have God wrapped around our little fingers. When healing comes, we are very grateful.

 

[Alcamo]

Umaro,

What has stood out to me as I've done my own research into the issue of the so-called "science vs. religion" (a lightly disguised code phrase for "true vs. false), is that what is taught in many instances in the classroom simply isn't true. The establishment knows there are serious unanswered questions about what is in the text books (even non-religious scientists have raised objections), but they teach it as fact anyway and label any legitimate scientific objections as "religious", and thereby exclude them.

They will teach that amino acids combined in the ancient ocean (or smaller ponds) to form peptides, polypeptides and eventually proteins. They don’t tell you that amino acids don’t combine in the presence of excess water. They also don’t tell you that, in a so-called ‘primordial soup’ there is nothing to prevent cross-reactions between the various chemicals that would make the development of life impossible, or many other such problems.

They will teach that the ancient atmosphere must have had very little if any oxygen because oxygen interferes with the chemical reactions necessary to form bio-molecules. They don’t tell you that we already know the early atmosphere of the Earth had an abundance of oxygen because we find primordial mineral deposits that couldn’t have formed without it.

So the Bible is really irrelevant to the point. It is true that when we put ALL the evidence on the table, it is consistent with the Christian view, but the objection we raise is a scientific one.

Most of those who formed the foundation of western science were fervent Bible-believers. They were often objecting to what was then called “Modern science”, but they were nonetheless proven correct. One could have levied the same question to them: “Why do you object to science when it contradicts the Bible?” though in fact they showed it was the scientific beliefs that were false.

Hope this helps.

 

[heron]

is that what is taught in many instances in the classroom simply isn't true.

Good point, Almano! This is not just a statement made for convenience.

A friend of mine who teaches science says the same thing. For instance, there are universal standards for what can be considered hypothesis, theory, and law -- but the textbook writers do not adhere to these standards. They tend toward formalizing, locking in schools of thought so it's easier to standardize tests.

There are documentaries my kids see on television about current research, that conflicts with what they are taught in school. We have to discuss how they will need to make a decision, whether to get the answers right, or put down a more current answer.

 

[prophecystudent]

I've attended plenty of Sunday School lessons, and found it to be plain and simple indoctrination. I've also taken several courses on religion, including one that examined The Book of Job and the works of Thomas A. Kempis.

My point in asking about the doctors actually game from a story I heard yesterday, in which a man with a tumor was told not to seek any more medical help because Jesus had already cured him. Surprise, the tumor was still there when they looked. The question was that if you go to doctors and get healed by the doctors, why claim God's miracle? It was very probably the doctors that cured you. The only way to show it was God would be if you were cured with no outside help, or if it were something that cannot be cured. I don't exactly see God helping amputees regrow their limbs.

My first thought regarding someone telling a person with a tumor not to go to a doctor, is that whoever said that should have kept his/her mouth shut.

I have attended healing services as a member of the support staff. I can assure you that in every case people were told not to stop taking medication, not to stop seeing their docturs. God heals when, and how, He determines. Could God cause an amputee to grow a new limb? Of course He can. Does He? I have not heard of that, but I have read a confirmed story of a man who grew a couple of new vertabrae. As I recall the details, the man had somehow ended up with three of his vertabrae removed. Not sure anymore exactly how it came about.

However, the man had tried healing services, etc etc for quite some time. He drove a couple of hundred miles from western Pennsylvania to a healing crusade in Philadelphia.

At the crusade he asked to be healed of his spinal problem. Note that he had to wear a steel reinforced back brace to be able to move, and was in constant pain.

At any rate, he went forward for healing. The healer prayed for him, nothing happened. Full of disappointment the man headed home after the crusade.

After some time in the car his back brace began to get uncomfortable to the point that he took it off.

When he got home he discovered he didn't need the brace to get into the house. He went to see his doctor about it. The doctor took x-rays and was astounded to see that the vertabrae had regrown.

This was reported in the Pentecostal Evangel magazine about 25 years ago, and was documented to be true.

There is only one explanation. God did it, in His time, at His pleasure.

No person under a doctor's care should cease to follow that doctor's instructions until the healing has been confirmed. To tell someone to stop taking medicine because "God has healed them", is irresponsible in the extreme. If God heals you, it will be confirmed by the doctor. and, BTW: The visit to the doctor to have the healing confirmed simply provides more proof of the healing, and glory to our God.

Fred
PS, I still urge you to get involved in a systematic bible study course.

F.

 

[Umaro]

My first thought regarding someone telling a person with a tumor not to go to a doctor, is that whoever said that should have kept his/her mouth shut.

I have attended healing services as a member of the support staff. I can assure you that in every case people were told not to stop taking medication, not to stop seeing their docturs. God heals when, and how, He determines. Could God cause an amputee to grow a new limb? Of course He can. Does He? I have not heard of that, but I have read a confirmed story of a man who grew a couple of new vertabrae. As I recall the details, the man had somehow ended up with three of his vertabrae removed. Not sure anymore exactly how it came about.

However, the man had tried healing services, etc etc for quite some time. He drove a couple of hundred miles from western Pennsylvania to a healing crusade in Philadelphia.

At the crusade he asked to be healed of his spinal problem. Note that he had to wear a steel reinforced back brace to be able to move, and was in constant pain.

At any rate, he went forward for healing. The healer prayed for him, nothing happened. Full of disappointment the man headed home after the crusade.

After some time in the car his back brace began to get uncomfortable to the point that he took it off.

When he got home he discovered he didn't need the brace to get into the house. He went to see his doctor about it. The doctor took x-rays and was astounded to see that the vertabrae had regrown.

This was reported in the Pentecostal Evangel magazine about 25 years ago, and was documented to be true.

There is only one explanation. God did it, in His time, at His pleasure.

No person under a doctor's care should cease to follow that doctor's instructions until the healing has been confirmed. To tell someone to stop taking medicine because "God has healed them", is irresponsible in the extreme. If God heals you, it will be confirmed by the doctor. and, BTW: The visit to the doctor to have the healing confirmed simply provides more proof of the healing, and glory to our God.

Fred
PS, I still urge you to get involved in a systematic bible study course.

F.

Can you post a link to this article? I searched for it but could not find anything. I would have thought that something of this magnitude (a documented miracle) would be more common knowledge and easy to find.

 

[RC1262]

G'day Umaro,

I've attended plenty of Sunday School lessons, and found it to be plain and simple indoctrination.

I find this ironic, reading a story to children as though it were true is what you call "indoctrination," right? How does this differ from evolutionists teaching school children that evolution is true when in fact it has not yet been proven to be so and further more, when many of the "evidences" that they put forward today in biology textbooks and museums as proof of the truth of evolution have been denied by evolutionists themselves since the 1960s, for example, embryonic recapitulation. Another well known example is the English peppered moths which was riddled with error, fraud, and half-truths, yet they were taught it as fact and truth that proved evolution to be truth.

If you are to be fair and consistent with what you are saying, then by your own reasoning, teaching evolution to school children as fact and truth based on evidence that can be often validly interpreted either way at best, and fraud and half-truths at worst, is "indoctrination."

From,
Scorch (a.k.a. RC-1262).

 

[Seekermeister]

I have participated in debating on nonChristian forums for a number of years, about such topics as evolution, and the scary thing is, the amount of people that I have come across, that firmly believe that these are absolute facts, and if you don't believe them, you are ignorant.

I have always felt that one of the first thing necessary to help someone, such as this, to be able to find God, is to breakdown the obstacles that science is busy erecting and propping up.

 

[salida]

Umaro--

No, the Bible is anymore than a theory than the sun rise in the morning or the law of gravity. These are facts not theorys. Read God's Fingerprints - its has physics in it - not to twist and turn it into making look like the Bible is true but it proves it is. This book is a science reference type book - if one doesn't believe God then - then they are in complete denial. I have already suggested several objective books to read. And one would be in complete outright denial to ignore them also. If you haven't done your own research and homework, then I have to assume you just want to rant and rave and not accept the gift of Christ. Arguing and feelings doesn't change the facts and the reality of Christ. Your the one who has only a limited amount of time you say. I strongly suggest you take our advice sir. You won't be arguing with God about it - he doesn't debate. Not the eternal Holy God of the universe.