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Scholarly Defense of Intelligent Design

The Paul

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I wouldn't think it necessary to explain why we know that the universal constants must have been fined tuned for life to exist. After all, even Richard Dawkins acknowledges that much to be true. But if you dispute the point, I've already mentioned two books that explain the reasoning at length: The Mind of God by Paul Davies and Just Six Numbers by Martin Reese. A few excerpts from the first one:
[FONT=&quot]We can write down the equations of physics and then tinker with them a bit to see what difference it makes. In this way theorists can construct artificial-model universes to test mathematically whether they can support life. Considerable effort has gone into studying this question. Most investigators conclude that the existence of complex systems, especially biological systems, is remarkably sensitive to the form of the laws of physics, and that in some cases the most minute changes to the laws are sufficient to wreck the chances of life arising.


[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Most scientists have tacitly assumed that an approximately non-quantum (or "classical", to use the jargon) world would have emerged automatically from the big bang, even from a big bang in which quantum effects dominated. Recently, however, Hartle and Gellmann have challenged this assumption. They argue that the existence of an approximately classical world, in which well-defined material objects exist at distinct locations in space, and in which there is a well-defined concept of time, requires special cosmic initial conditions. Their calculations indicate that, for the majority of initial states, a generally classical world would not emerge.[/FONT]



[FONT=&quot]A careful study suggests that the laws of the universe are remarkably felicitous for the emergence of richness and variety. In the case of living organisms, their existence seems to depend on a number of fortuitous coincidences that some scientists and philosophers have hailed as nothing short of astonishing.[/FONT]


Yes, yes, yes. We can imagine a bunch of universes incapable of supporting life as we know it. Any time you try to quantify the odds of those universes versus the odds of a universe capable of sustaining life as we know it, though, you're just making things up. It really not very different from saying "Why is there something instead of nothing?"

The fine tuning argument isn't new or scientific. It's just wearing a fancy hat.

That ignores a problem that I've already pointed out. Even if vast numbers of universes were springing out of nowhere, there's no reason to believe that each one would have a slightly different set of physical parameters: slightly different total mass, slightly different total energy, slightly different gravitational constant, etc...

Well where does that leave us? If the parameters are constrained (by what?) they all have to be just like this one, then. That seems bizarre, but not otherwise meaningful.

Even if we knew of some mechanism that causes universes to spring out of nowhere--which, needless to say, we do not--

Well that's not exactly true. We don't really know the universe or universes come from, and we're very much in disagreement about what the cause might be, but pretty much everyone agrees there exists or existed something capable of spawning at least one universe.

I'm actually not entirely convinced, but I'm willing to grant the point for now.

Anyway, if we agree there exists or existed something that can create universes I find the idea it did one and then just stopped really weird.

a mechanism which produced many universes with the same properties seems much more probable than one in which the properties all vary a tiny little bit and thus allow one to escape the fine-tuning argument via multiple universes.

Then there are the two other objections that neither Dawkins nor any of his fans can answer. First, they're constantly telling me not to believe in things when there's no evidence for those things. There's certainly no evidence for any universe other than this one. No one's ever seen, heard, smelled, tasted or touched such a universe, nor any evidence originating from or otherwise suggesting the existence of such a universe. So, to be consistent with how atheists tell me to think, I have to reject any claims about multiple universes.

If we grant that at some point in the past the universe did not exist then the fact that it does now is very compelling evidence for some the existence of some mechanism capable of creating universes.

We've got no evidence it didn't peter-out after one or two, but it's got more evidence in its favor than any god. Some mechanism exists and is capable of one or more.

Really "God" in the context of the fine tuning argument is just the mechanism in question, plus a bunch of unsupported additional qualities.

Second, a vast multiverse is much more complex (by any definition) than a God capable of creating one universe. So by Dawkins' own reasoning the later is preferable to the former as an explanation for the existence of a universe capable of supporting life.

"Complex" is a tricky term, but if we stick with what it would mean when we talk about the the world around us seeming too "complex" to lack a designer a multiverse isn't more complex than a creator-god, it's just higher entropy. When people say the world is too complex to have just appeared they're not talking about the raw amount of information required to describe it, they're talking about how orderly, specific, organized, etc it is.

If instead of a bunch of discrete planets and stars our universe just consisted of a screaming, boiling mass of hydrogen a few trillion light years across that would be more "complex" than the universe we live in, in a certain sense. There'd be a lot more going on, more particles with more interactions. The universe would contain more information even if no one existed to appreciate it.

A multiverse haphazardly covering all possible configurations isn't ordered, specific, organized, or anything of the sort. It's just high-entropy. It's not more "complex" than something like a creator-god.

Like many people I find the anthropic principle utterly unsatisfactory; in fact, so does Dawkins. The fact of the matter is that we have a universe capable of supporting life; here we are, as proof of that. So it's natural for as to ask the reason for it. The anthropic principle doesn't give a reason.

We don't just have a universe with life in it. We have a universe you claim is specifically tailored to support life. The universe we see seems so perfect for the life it harbors... but of course any life-bearing universe is going to contain life that seems a pretty close match for it, and no one is ever going to observe anything different no matter how many alien configurations achieve a similar result.
 
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Lepanto

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The best and only argument for ID is that the universe is too complex so there must be a God.

At the risk of plagiarism, you might want to read up "The God Delusion" written by Richard Dawkins. There's a section where he discussed ID. He would bring up an ID argument and promptly shred it to pieces.

But Richard Dawkins' arguments have also been shred to pieces by other scholars.

Moreover, Antony Flew said "I would add that Dawkins is selective to the point of dishonesty when he cites the views of scientists on the philosophical implications of the scientific data."

Michael Ruse said "Dawkins made me feel ashamed to be an atheist."
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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But Richard Dawkins' arguments have also been shred to pieces by other scholars.

Moreover, Antony Flew said "I would add that Dawkins is selective to the point of dishonesty when he cites the views of scientists on the philosophical implications of the scientific data."

Michael Ruse said "Dawkins made me feel ashamed to be an atheist."

Who cares what Antony Flew and Michael Ruse say. And it's easy to say Dawkins has been torn to pieces without actually showing the pieces.

On the subject of ID, Dawkins is entirely correct. ID is a re-branding of creationism, and isn't science. Care to dispute that?
 
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dazed

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Shredding is matter of perspective, I suppose. I've read The God Delusion and I wasn't terribly impressed by the chapter on intelligent design or by any other part of it. Dawkins' fundamental argument against intelligent design could be summarized like this: (1) If a God existed who was capable of designing the universe, that God would have to be extremely complex. (2) Organized complexity exists only as an end product of evolution or some other such process. (3) Therefore the probability of God starting to exist is extremely small.

In some ways I wonder whether Dawkins had some subconscious urge to sabotage his own argument, particularly in one metaphor that he uses. He describes complexity as a height, in which advanced life forms are very high up, and then describes evolution as a "crane" which lifts life forms up to those heights. Now if we see a 100-foot-tall building we can assume that a crane was probably used to build it. On the other hand, if we a mountain 10,000 feet tall we know that no crane was used to build it. Similarly the universe, to my perspective, seems too complex to be explained away as a product of random processes.

There's a section on evolution that he argued that even if there was a god, he would be a simpleton and not the almighty, omnipotent etc god as we know it.

We all know the process of building a mountain. No one, with a high school science education, would think that it was created by a god.

Second, atheists frequently tell me that I should reject all claims that do not have any evidence to back them up. Now certainly there is no evidence for the existence of any universe besides our own. So by that standard I should chuck out the multiverse.

By all means, chuck both out. Your opponent is wrong doesn't equate that you are right.
 
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variant

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I wouldn't think it necessary to explain why we know that the universal constants must have been fined tuned for life to exist. After all, even Richard Dawkins acknowledges that much to be true. But if you dispute the point, I've already mentioned two books that explain the reasoning at length: The Mind of God by Paul Davies and Just Six Numbers by Martin Reese. A few excerpts from the first one:

It is indeed necessary because we don't have the first clue about the process you are judging (and I highly doubt you do either).

What are the other possibilities for the universal constants and how are they changed/created?

We can write down the equations of physics and then tinker with them a bit to see what difference it makes. In this way theorists can construct artificial-model universes to test mathematically whether they can support life. Considerable effort has gone into studying this question. Most investigators conclude that the existence of complex systems, especially biological systems, is remarkably sensitive to the form of the laws of physics, and that in some cases the most minute changes to the laws are sufficient to wreck the chances of life arising.

Why should we expect that the fundamental laws of physics are plastic?

In essence you are supporting the assumed conclusion that there is no good reason for the constants that we have (without any evidence to support that I might add).

Most scientists have tacitly assumed that an approximately non-quantum (or "classical", to use the jargon) world would have emerged automatically from the big bang, even from a big bang in which quantum effects dominated. Recently, however, Hartle and Gellmann have challenged this assumption. They argue that the existence of an approximately classical world, in which well-defined material objects exist at distinct locations in space, and in which there is a well-defined concept of time, requires special cosmic initial conditions. Their calculations indicate that, for the majority of initial states, a generally classical world would not emerge.[/FONT]

Thats way to construct a theory, to, deny the existence of the universe in it's present conditions because of calculations....

I'll call this reverse empiricism.
 
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keith99

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Anthropic Principle.
First Cause.
Irreducible Complexity.

Those are pretty much the hallmarks of ID, particularly irreducible complexity. Of course, all of them have horrible problems because ID as a whole is pseudoscience, but that's not really the point of what you're asking for. :)

Irreducable complexity is a very unfortunate term. Fools constantly think it means that complexity shows design.

Irreducable simplicity would have been a far better term.
 
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keith99

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Aliens Created Us

Actually in light of a post a few before yours asking exactly what the assignment was you raise an interesting point.

What degree of ID will serve? Is seeding Earth with the right microrganisms ID?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Lepanto

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Who cares what Antony Flew and Michael Ruse say. And it's easy to say Dawkins has been torn to pieces without actually showing the pieces.

On the subject of ID, Dawkins is entirely correct. ID is a re-branding of creationism, and isn't science. Care to dispute that?

Theory of evolution has been refuted long time ago but evolutionists just didn't admit it.

(1) The creation of life naturally is not possible;

(2) No missing links have ever been found so far despite the fact that the fossil records are excellent. The dinosaur or any other animal ancestors charts (created by evolutionists) are misleading because no ancestors have been found so far;

(3) The chance of a primitive cell evolving into a human without any Designer or external guidance is shockingly LOW;

(4) Even if Chance mutation could turn an animal into another species of animal, it could NOT create intelligence or create love or create beauty. Intelligence, Love and Beauty must exist in the universe first.

(5) Herbal medicine speaks against evolution. If plants do evolve, then the nature of medicinal plants will change from time to time (or they might evolve gradually into an animal), but experience shows they don't.

(6) Medical research reveals the amazing complexity of the human body.
For example: Reflexology reveals the amazing relationship between foot and organs. This is BEYOND what chance mutation can achieve.

____________________________________________________________

Even if macro-evolution were true, a Creator would still be needed. Why ? The language inside DNA by itself is more amazing than any Computer Language in the world. The DNA is more amazing than any machine.
Who gave those powers to the DNA ?
Who gave mutation ability to the DNA ?
Who put beauty, order and the fine-tuning into the universe???
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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Theory of evolution has been refuted long time ago but evolutionists just didn't admit it.

The emphasis you're putting on the word "theory", is if you think it's a bad word, makes me think you have no idea what "theory" means in science. Theory is a good word. A theory explains facts consistently.

The theory of evolution has not been refuted, and if you were scientifically literate you'd know this. Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.

(1) The creation of life naturally is not possible;

I think what you're getting at is "abiogenesis" is not possible, and you must have had your head in the sand for the past 20 years if you think that. There are many plausible models being thrown around, but we are not sure how it happened. But this does not mean that it is wrong.

And abiogenesis is not part of evolution. Evolution explains the diversity of life, not its origin. Asking evolution to explain the "creation of life" is like asking gravity to explain protein synthesis. It makes no sense.

(2) No missing links have ever been found so far despite the fact that the fossil records are excellent. The dinosaur or any other animal ancestors charts (created by evolutionists) are misleading because no ancestors have been found so far;

Not a single fossil is needed to demonstrate evolution. All you need is the DNA evidence.

But the fossils are beautiful too.

(3) The chance of a primitive cell evolving into a human without any Designer or external guidance is shockingly LOW;

Show me the numbers. Looks like you've calculated something.

(4) Even if Chance mutation could turn an animal into another species of animal, it could NOT create intelligence or create love or create beauty. Intelligence, Love and Beauty must exist in the universe first.

You have no evidence for this claim. It is clear from the study of neurology that emotions and knowledge are byproducts of neurons. It's very complicated, but the fact that you don't understand doesn't mean it's wrong.

(5) Herbal medicine speaks against evolution. If plants do evolve, then the nature of medicinal plants will change from time to time (or they might evolve gradually into an animal), but experience shows they don't.

This is by far the worst argument I've ever seen on these forums, and that says a lot.

Who ever said a plant would change into an animal? Would you please educate yourself on what scientists actually say before building these straw men?

(6) Medical research reveals the amazing complexity of the human body.
For example: Reflexology reveals the amazing relationship between foot and organs. This is BEYOND what chance mutation can achieve.

As a medical student, I can personally attest to the stupidity of design of the human body. It looks exactly as we would expect through common ancestry. If an intelligent designer designed us, I'd have to ask the following:

  • Why is our esophagus next to our trachea? Tons of people die annually from choking thanks to this anatomical relationship.
  • Why does our pulmonary artery start out in the embryo connected to the left ventricle? If the rotation mechanism fails, the baby is born with two separate circulatory systems and dies.
  • Why does our left recurrent laryngeal nerve travel all the way beneath the aortic arch only to loop around and travel back up to where it originally was?
  • Why did we lose the ability to further metabolize uric acid? If you have too much uric acid in your blood, your kidneys can fail and you get gouty arthritis. The gene for the enzyme is present in our DNA, but doesn't work.
  • Why did we lose the ability to synthesize Vitamin C? It is essential for health, and our blood vessels are fragile without it. The gene is also present in our DNA, but doesn't work.
Thanks, designer. Thanks for nothing.

But you appear to be an alt-med type of person, so I'll stop using big words.

Even if macro-evolution were true, a Creator would still be needed. Why ? The language inside DNA by itself is more amazing than any Computer Language in the world. The DNA is more amazing than any machine.

You do realize this DNA language only has 4 characters, right? The English alphabet is more complex.

Who gave those powers to the DNA ?
Who gave mutation ability to the DNA ?
Who put beauty, order and the fine-tuning into the universe???

Now these are just silly questions.
 
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dazed

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Theory of evolution has been refuted long time ago but evolutionists just didn't admit it.

Actually, the Bible affirmed evolution!

After the ever loving God wiped out all humanity except for Noah and his family, humanity rebooted with that righteous Semitic family. Since the Bible didn't mention any new creation, all current skin, eye and hair colours which ranges from black to brown to white to red must have evolved from this Hebrew seed. And it was a fast evolution.

The flood occurred around 3000 B.C., give or take a few years. The Chinese civilization began around that time as well! And the Chinese already have features that were quite distinct from a Semite.
 
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