Scapegoat.

[disciple1]

Since Jesus died in our place why do people think we're to try not to sin.
We're just to try to love as Jesus did, not be sinless like he was.
I know we're not to be selfish, or want more money, but no one was ever sinless except Christ and no one will ever be except Christ.
Leviticus chapter 16


5 From the Israelite community he is to take two male goats for a sin offering and a ram for a burnt offering.

6 “Aaron is to offer the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household. 7 Then he is to take the two goats and present them before the Lord at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 8 He is to cast lots for the two goats—one lot for the Lord and the other for the scapegoat.[b] 9 Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the Lord and sacrifice it for a sin offering. 10 But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.

11 “Aaron shall bring the bull for his own sin offering to make atonement for himself and his household, and he is to slaughter the bull for his own sin offering. 12 He is to take a censer full of burning coals from the altar before the Lord and two handfuls of finely ground fragrant incense and take them behind the curtain. 13 He is to put the incense on the fire before the Lord, and the smoke of the incense will conceal the atonement cover above the tablets of the covenant law, so that he will not die. 14 He is to take some of the bull’s blood and with his finger sprinkle it on the front of the atonement cover; then he shall sprinkle some of it with his finger seven times before the atonement cover.

15 “He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull’s blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it. 16 In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 No one is to be in the tent of meeting from the time Aaron goes in to make atonement in the Most Holy Place until he comes out, having made atonement for himself, his household and the whole community of Israel.

18 “Then he shall come out to the altar that is before the Lord and make atonement for it. He shall take some of the bull’s blood and some of the goat’s blood and put it on all the horns of the altar. 19 He shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times to cleanse it and to consecrate it from the uncleanness of the Israelites.

20 “When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. 21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.

23 “Then Aaron is to go into the tent of meeting and take off the linen garments he put on before he entered the Most Holy Place, and he is to leave them there. 24 He shall bathe himself with water in the sanctuary area and put on his regular garments. Then he shall come out and sacrifice the burnt offering for himself and the burnt offering for the people, to make atonement for himself and for the people. 25 He shall also burn the fat of the sin offering on the altar.

26 “The man who releases the goat as a scapegoat must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp. 27 The bull and the goat for the sin offerings, whose blood was brought into the Most Holy Place to make atonement, must be taken outside the camp; their hides, flesh and intestines are to be burned up. 28 The man who burns them must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may come into the camp.

29 “This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: On the tenth day of the seventh month you must deny yourselves[c] and not do any work—whether native-born or a foreigner residing among you— 30 because on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins. 31 It is a day of sabbath rest, and you must deny yourselves; it is a lasting ordinance. 32 The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest is to make atonement. He is to put on the sacred linen garments 33 and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, for the tent of meeting and the altar, and for the priests and all the members of the community.

34 “This is to be a lasting ordinance for you: Atonement is to be made once a year for all the sins of the Israelites.”

 

[Shimshon]

Since Jesus died in our place why do people think we're to try not to sin.
We're just to try to love as Jesus did, not be sinless like he was.
I know we're not to be selfish, or want more money, but no one was ever sinless except Christ and no one will ever be except Christ.

So it seems like you have not read or understand the words given us through the disciples.


This is how the Apostles defined Holiness and how it applied to our relationship with God through Messiah.

If you love Yeshua you will obey his commandments. We are made pure and holy by the teaching of his Word. (John)

To be cleansed from our sins we must have faith, turn from those sins, and turn to God to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. When we are filled with the Holy Spirit we will be able to preach God’s message with boldness. (Acts)

The Holy Spirit fills our hearts with God’s love. You must choose to be slaves to righteousness so that you will become holy. Those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. If the Holy Spirit controls your mind, there is life and peace. Through the power of the Holy Spirit you turn from sin and it’s evil ways. We are God’s children. We were born again by His Spirit and if His Spirit is holy and lives in us, we will be holy too. Our bodies are God’s not our own. We cannot do with them what we want, but should live a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Romans)

We are called by God to be his own holy people. He made us holy by means of Yeshua the Messiah, just as he did all Messianics everywhere. Whoever calls on the name of Yeshua is made holy. God alone makes it possible for us to believe in Yeshua the Messiah. He is the one who makes us acceptable to God. He makes us pure and holy. We are God’s temple and God’s temple is holy. Our sins have been washed away and we have been made right with God because of what Yeshua and the Spirit of God have done for us. Again, our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in us and was given to us by God. We do not belong to ourselves. As the apostles did, so should we be proved by our purity, our understanding, our patience, our kindness, our sincere love and the power of the Holy Spirit. We are promised to the Messiah as a pure pride. (Corinthians)

God gives us the Holy Spirit and miracles because we believe in the message we heard about the Messiah. Through faith we receive the promised Holy Spirit. We who are born of the Holy Spirit are persecuted by those who want us to keep the law, they live by their old sinful nature thinking they can be purified and cleansed by the law through their flesh, rather than the Spirit. We live according to our new life in the Holy Spirit, not doing what our old sinful nature craves. The old sinful nature loves to do evil, which is opposite from what the Holy Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are opposite from the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, and our choices are never free from this conflict. But when we are directed by the Holy Spirit, we are no longer subject to the law. When we followed the desires of our sinful nature, our lives produced; sexual immorality, impure thought, eagerness for lustful pleasures. But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness. But we are living now by the Holy Spirit, we should follow the Holy Spirits leading in every part of our lives. (Galatians)

God loves us and through Yeshua we are holy and without fault. When we believed in Yeshua, he made us his own and gave us his Holy Spirit. We who believe in Yeshua are becoming a holy temple for God. We are a new person created in God’s likeness, righteous holy and true. We should not bring sorrow to God’s Holy Spirit by the way we live. We can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of the Messiah and of God. Greedy people are really idolaters who worship the things of this world. But we should let the Holy Spirit fill and control us. Because Yeshua gave up his life for us to make us holy and clean, washed by the Word of God to present us as his glorious people without spot or wrinkle, holy and without fault. (Ephesians)

What really matters is that we live pure and blameless lives until Messiah returns. We are to live clean, innocent lives as children of God in a dark world full of crooked and perverse people. Letting our lives shine brightly before them. Fixing our thoughts on what is true and honorable and right. Thinking about things that are pure and lovely and admirable. Things that are excellent and worthy of praise. (Philippians)

We are God’s own holy people. And as the holy people whom he loves, we must clothe ourselves with tenderhearted mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. (Colossians)

When we stand before God our Father our hearts will be strong, blameless and holy because of Messiah. God wants us to be holy, so we should keep clear of all sexual sin. God has called us to be holy, not to live impure lives. Our whole spirit, soul, and body are kept blameless by the God of peace till the day when our Lord Yeshua the Messiah comes again to receive glory and praise from his holy people. We thank God for this salvation that comes through the Spirit who makes us holy and by our belief in the truth. (Thessalonians)

All Christians/Messianic should be filled with love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and sincere faith. Free from anger and controversy. We are not to participate in the sins of other but keep ourselves pure. It is God who saved us and chose us to live a holy life. Keep yourself pure and God can use you for his purpose. Your life will be clean, and you will be ready to be used for every good work. Pursue faith and love and peace, and enjoy the companionship of those who call on God with pure hearts. (Timothy)

Live wisely and pure and you will not bring shame on the Word of God. Because Yeshua gave his life for us we are free from every kind of sin, cleansed and made his very own people, totally committed to doing what is right. We are saved not because of the good things we did, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins and gave us new life through the Holy Spirit. (Titus)

Yeshua died to cleanse us from the stain of sin. Yeshua makes us holy which allows us to have the same Father. Our Father wants us to be holy, and we are holy by the sacrifice of the body of Yeshua the Messiah once for all time. Because of Yeshua sacrifice we can go right into the presence of God, with true hearts fully trusting him. Because our evil consciences have been sprinkled with the Messiah’s blood to make us clean, and our bodies have been washed. So, we should live in peace with everyone, and seek to live a clean and holy life, for those who are not holy will not see God. (Hebrews)

We must care for those who are in trouble, and refuse to let the world corrupt us. Wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure. It is also peace loving, gentle at all times, and willing to yield to others. It is full of mercy and good deeds. It shows no partiality and is always sincere. Friendship with this world makes us an enemy of God. If our aim is to enjoy this world, we can’t be a friend of God. The Holy Spirit that God has placed in us jealously longs for us to be faithful. He gives us strength to stand against such evil desires. (James)

The Spirit has made us holy. As a result, we have obeyed Yeshua the Messiah and are cleansed by his blood. So be truly glad! There is wonderful joy ahead, even though it is necessary for us to endure many trials for a while. These trials are only to test our faith, to show that it is strong and pure. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold, yet far more precious to God than mere gold. If our faith remains strong after being tried, it will bring us much praise and glory and honor on the day when Yeshua the Messiah is revealed to the world. So think clearly and exercise self-control. Look forward to the return of Yeshua the Messiah. But now we must be holy in everything we do, just as God, who chose us to be his children is holy. We must be holy because God is holy. We have sincere love for each other because we were cleansed from our sins when we accepted the truth about Yeshua the Messiah. Do not forget that God has cleansed us from our old life of sin. Everything around us is going to vanish but what is holy. So what holy, godly lives we should be living! And while we are waiting for this to happen, we should make every effort to live a pure and blameless life. And be at peace with God. (Peter)

All who believe they are God’s children keep themselves pure, just as the Messiah is pure. (1 John)

And here are the exact verse references;
(all you need to do is copy & paste this group of scriptures into your online bible search engine and all will come up in any translation you prefer)

John 14:15,John 17:16-17,Acts 2:37-39,Acts 3:19,Acts 4:30-32,Acts 15:9,Romans 5:4-5,Romans 6:19,Romans 8:5,Romans 8:13,Romans 8:16,Romans 11:16,Romans 12:1,Romans 14:17,1 Corinthians 1:2,1 Corinthians 1:30,1 Corinthians 3:17,1 Corinthians 6:11,1 Corinthians 6:19,2 Corinthians 6:6,2 Corinthians 7:1,2 Corinthians 11:2,Galatians 3:5,Galatians 3:14,Galatians 4:29,Galatians 5:16-19,Galatians 5:22,Galatians 5:25,Ephesians 1:4,Ephesians 1:13,Ephesians
2:21,Ephesians 4:24,Ephesians 4:30,Ephesians 5:5,Ephesians 5:18,Ephesians 5:25-27,Philippians 1:10,Philippians 2:15,Philippians 4:8,Colossians 1:22,Colossians 1:26,Colossians 3:12,1 Thessalonians 3:13,1 Thessalonians 4:3,1 Thessalonians 4:7-8,1 Thessalonians 5:23,2 Thessalonians 1:10,2 Thessalonians 2:13,1 Timothy 1:5,1 Timothy 2:8,1 Timothy 5:22,2 Timothy 1:9,2 Timothy 2:21-
22,Titus 2:5,Titus 2:14,Titus 3:5,Hebrews 1:3,Hebrews 2:11,Hebrews 10:10,Hebrews 10:22,Hebrews 12:14,James 1:27,James 3:17,James 4:4-6,1 Peter 1:2,1 Peter 1:6-7,1 Peter 1:13,1 Peter 1:15-16,1 Peter 1:22,2 Peter 1:9,2 Peter 3:11,2 Peter 3:14,1 John 3:3-5

This is a list of all verses in the NT that contain the word holy.

I think the evidence is overwhelming. How can we say we sin, and still be found righteous in his sight? Righteousness is not found in how we handle physical items, it has to do with how we have been circumcised within our hearts. It has to do with how a Holy Spirit is living in and through you, as you walk throughout the world as God commanded. We are called to perfection, and yet we have an eternally graceful God in the form of Yeshua. Always willing to accept you back, IF you make t’shuva and repent.

God is calling all to repent, and place faith in God. Faith that God will and can place His Spirit within you and live the works of the law through your very being. In this very place, outside the temple.

 

[disciple1]

So it seems like you have not read or understand the words given us through the disciples.


This is how the Apostles defined Holiness and how it applied to our relationship with God through Messiah.

If you love Yeshua you will obey his commandments. We are made pure and holy by the teaching of his Word. (John)

To be cleansed from our sins we must have faith, turn from those sins, and turn to God to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. When we are filled with the Holy Spirit we will be able to preach God’s message with boldness. (Acts)

The Holy Spirit fills our hearts with God’s love. You must choose to be slaves to righteousness so that you will become holy. Those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit. If the Holy Spirit controls your mind, there is life and peace. Through the power of the Holy Spirit you turn from sin and it’s evil ways. We are God’s children. We were born again by His Spirit and if His Spirit is holy and lives in us, we will be holy too. Our bodies are God’s not our own. We cannot do with them what we want, but should live a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. (Romans)

We are called by God to be his own holy people. He made us holy by means of Yeshua the Messiah, just as he did all Messianics everywhere. Whoever calls on the name of Yeshua is made holy. God alone makes it possible for us to believe in Yeshua the Messiah. He is the one who makes us acceptable to God. He makes us pure and holy. We are God’s temple and God’s temple is holy. Our sins have been washed away and we have been made right with God because of what Yeshua and the Spirit of God have done for us. Again, our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in us and was given to us by God. We do not belong to ourselves. As the apostles did, so should we be proved by our purity, our understanding, our patience, our kindness, our sincere love and the power of the Holy Spirit. We are promised to the Messiah as a pure pride. (Corinthians)

God gives us the Holy Spirit and miracles because we believe in the message we heard about the Messiah. Through faith we receive the promised Holy Spirit. We who are born of the Holy Spirit are persecuted by those who want us to keep the law, they live by their old sinful nature thinking they can be purified and cleansed by the law through their flesh, rather than the Spirit. We live according to our new life in the Holy Spirit, not doing what our old sinful nature craves. The old sinful nature loves to do evil, which is opposite from what the Holy Spirit wants. And the Spirit gives us desires that are opposite from the sinful nature desires. These two forces are constantly fighting each other, and our choices are never free from this conflict. But when we are directed by the Holy Spirit, we are no longer subject to the law. When we followed the desires of our sinful nature, our lives produced; sexual immorality, impure thought, eagerness for lustful pleasures. But when the Holy Spirit controls our lives, he will produce this kind of fruit in us; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness. But we are living now by the Holy Spirit, we should follow the Holy Spirits leading in every part of our lives. (Galatians)

God loves us and through Yeshua we are holy and without fault. When we believed in Yeshua, he made us his own and gave us his Holy Spirit. We who believe in Yeshua are becoming a holy temple for God. We are a new person created in God’s likeness, righteous holy and true. We should not bring sorrow to God’s Holy Spirit by the way we live. We can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of the Messiah and of God. Greedy people are really idolaters who worship the things of this world. But we should let the Holy Spirit fill and control us. Because Yeshua gave up his life for us to make us holy and clean, washed by the Word of God to present us as his glorious people without spot or wrinkle, holy and without fault. (Ephesians)

What really matters is that we live pure and blameless lives until Messiah returns. We are to live clean, innocent lives as children of God in a dark world full of crooked and perverse people. Letting our lives shine brightly before them. Fixing our thoughts on what is true and honorable and right. Thinking about things that are pure and lovely and admirable. Things that are excellent and worthy of praise. (Philippians)

We are God’s own holy people. And as the holy people whom he loves, we must clothe ourselves with tenderhearted mercy, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience. (Colossians)

When we stand before God our Father our hearts will be strong, blameless and holy because of Messiah. God wants us to be holy, so we should keep clear of all sexual sin. God has called us to be holy, not to live impure lives. Our whole spirit, soul, and body are kept blameless by the God of peace till the day when our Lord Yeshua the Messiah comes again to receive glory and praise from his holy people. We thank God for this salvation that comes through the Spirit who makes us holy and by our belief in the truth. (Thessalonians)

All Christians/Messianic should be filled with love that comes from a pure heart, a clear conscience, and sincere faith. Free from anger and controversy. We are not to participate in the sins of other but keep ourselves pure. It is God who saved us and chose us to live a holy life. Keep yourself pure and God can use you for his purpose. Your life will be clean, and you will be ready to be used for every good work. Pursue faith and love and peace, and enjoy the companionship of those who call on God with pure hearts. (Timothy)

Live wisely and pure and you will not bring shame on the Word of God. Because Yeshua gave his life for us we are free from every kind of sin, cleansed and made his very own people, totally committed to doing what is right. We are saved not because of the good things we did, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins and gave us new life through the Holy Spirit. (Titus)

Yeshua died to cleanse us from the stain of sin. Yeshua makes us holy which allows us to have the same Father. Our Father wants us to be holy, and we are holy by the sacrifice of the body of Yeshua the Messiah once for all time. Because of Yeshua sacrifice we can go right into the presence of God, with true hearts fully trusting him. Because our evil consciences have been sprinkled with the Messiah’s blood to make us clean, and our bodies have been washed. So, we should live in peace with everyone, and seek to live a clean and holy life, for those who are not holy will not see God. (Hebrews)

We must care for those who are in trouble, and refuse to let the world corrupt us. Wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure. It is also peace loving, gentle at all times, and willing to yield to others. It is full of mercy and good deeds. It shows no partiality and is always sincere. Friendship with this world makes us an enemy of God. If our aim is to enjoy this world, we can’t be a friend of God. The Holy Spirit that God has placed in us jealously longs for us to be faithful. He gives us strength to stand against such evil desires. (James)

The Spirit has made us holy. As a result, we have obeyed Yeshua the Messiah and are cleansed by his blood. So be truly glad! There is wonderful joy ahead, even though it is necessary for us to endure many trials for a while. These trials are only to test our faith, to show that it is strong and pure. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold, yet far more precious to God than mere gold. If our faith remains strong after being tried, it will bring us much praise and glory and honor on the day when Yeshua the Messiah is revealed to the world. So think clearly and exercise self-control. Look forward to the return of Yeshua the Messiah. But now we must be holy in everything we do, just as God, who chose us to be his children is holy. We must be holy because God is holy. We have sincere love for each other because we were cleansed from our sins when we accepted the truth about Yeshua the Messiah. Do not forget that God has cleansed us from our old life of sin. Everything around us is going to vanish but what is holy. So what holy, godly lives we should be living! And while we are waiting for this to happen, we should make every effort to live a pure and blameless life. And be at peace with God. (Peter)

All who believe they are God’s children keep themselves pure, just as the Messiah is pure. (1 John)

And here are the exact verse references;
(all you need to do is copy & paste this group of scriptures into your online bible search engine and all will come up in any translation you prefer)

John 14:15,John 17:16-17,Acts 2:37-39,Acts 3:19,Acts 4:30-32,Acts 15:9,Romans 5:4-5,Romans 6:19,Romans 8:5,Romans 8:13,Romans 8:16,Romans 11:16,Romans 12:1,Romans 14:17,1 Corinthians 1:2,1 Corinthians 1:30,1 Corinthians 3:17,1 Corinthians 6:11,1 Corinthians 6:19,2 Corinthians 6:6,2 Corinthians 7:1,2 Corinthians 11:2,Galatians 3:5,Galatians 3:14,Galatians 4:29,Galatians 5:16-19,Galatians 5:22,Galatians 5:25,Ephesians 1:4,Ephesians 1:13,Ephesians
2:21,Ephesians 4:24,Ephesians 4:30,Ephesians 5:5,Ephesians 5:18,Ephesians 5:25-27,Philippians 1:10,Philippians 2:15,Philippians 4:8,Colossians 1:22,Colossians 1:26,Colossians 3:12,1 Thessalonians 3:13,1 Thessalonians 4:3,1 Thessalonians 4:7-8,1 Thessalonians 5:23,2 Thessalonians 1:10,2 Thessalonians 2:13,1 Timothy 1:5,1 Timothy 2:8,1 Timothy 5:22,2 Timothy 1:9,2 Timothy 2:21-
22,Titus 2:5,Titus 2:14,Titus 3:5,Hebrews 1:3,Hebrews 2:11,Hebrews 10:10,Hebrews 10:22,Hebrews 12:14,James 1:27,James 3:17,James 4:4-6,1 Peter 1:2,1 Peter 1:6-7,1 Peter 1:13,1 Peter 1:15-16,1 Peter 1:22,2 Peter 1:9,2 Peter 3:11,2 Peter 3:14,1 John 3:3-5

This is a list of all verses in the NT that contain the word holy.

I think the evidence is overwhelming. How can we say we sin, and still be found righteous in his sight? Righteousness is not found in how we handle physical items, it has to do with how we have been circumcised within our hearts. It has to do with how a Holy Spirit is living in and through you, as you walk throughout the world as God commanded. We are called to perfection, and yet we have an eternally graceful God in the form of Yeshua. Always willing to accept you back, IF you make t’shuva and repent.

God is calling all to repent, and place faith in God. Faith that God will and can place His Spirit within you and live the works of the law through your very being. In this very place, outside the temple.

He washed away our sins and gave us new life through the Holy Spirit.

How can we say we sin, and still be found righteous in his sight?

God is calling all to repent, and place faith in God. Faith that God will and can place His Spirit within you and live the works of the law through your very being. In this very place, outside the temple.

Then how do you explain this.
Matthew chapter 21
32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
Luke chapter 3

7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.”

10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.

11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”

13 “Don’t collect any more than you are required to,” he told them.

14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?”

He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”
It looks like you don't understand the way of righteousness either.

 

[Shimshon]

It looks like you don't understand the way of righteousness either.

All I did was quote the disciples you claim to follow. And not just one or two cherry-pick versus mind you but basically the entire New Testament. In fact one could say that this was the core of the message be holy as he is Holy because by faith he lives in and through you.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Disciple, as the prior poster made more than clear, sin is not OK.

If I may step on several toes here, this business of OSAS, (one saves always saved) or that we can essentially do whatever we want, and be saved by what they call "faith only" is, not biblical.

Think about it, if Satan were trying to drag people to hell, wouldn't that be the very thing he would want preached? It would be perfect and people are deceived by it every day because it's what they want, it makes things so easy, we can be of the world and God at the same time without consequence.

 

[SAAN]

If you dont want to stop sinning, there was no point of even getting saved to begin with. Seriously, what would you be saving your self of or turning from by accepting Jesus.

 

[Kenny'sID]

If you dont want to stop sinning, there was no point of even getting saved to begin with. Seriously, what would you be saving your self of or turning from by accepting Jesus.

Very good point...what would be the point?

It's as if some think Jesus came to create sinners by, instead of saying what he did to the adulteress woman, "Go and sin no more" he is now saying go and sin if you want.
The whole point was though we will never be sinless, was to make us better, more caring, less selfish people.

As obvious as this is to some of us, some are so deceived/convinced, they will never catch on to the truth. It's actually uncanny how well it's working.

 

[disciple1]

Very good point...what would be the point?

It's as if some think Jesus came to create sinners by, instead of saying what he did to the adulteress woman, "Go and sin no more" he is now saying go and sin if you want.
The whole point was though we will never be sinless, was to make us better, more caring, less selfish people.

As obvious as this is to some of us, some are so deceived/convinced, they will never catch on to the truth. It's actually uncanny how well it's working.

1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8 says
Above all else love one another deeply my brothers for love covers many sins.
And everyone sins, so what do you think your doing differently than anyone else except spreading hypocrisy, and committing the same sins, it's about love.
Galatians chapter 4
Hagar and Sarah

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”[e]

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
And I don't believe once saved always saved, either.

 

[Kenny'sID]

1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8 says
Above all else love one another deeply my brothers for love covers many sins.
And everyone sins, so what do you think your doing differently than anyone else except spreading hypocrisy, and committing the same sins, it's about love.
Galatians chapter 4
Hagar and Sarah

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise.

24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:

“Be glad, barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
shout for joy and cry aloud,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”[e]

28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30 But what does Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”[f] 31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
And I don't believe once saved always saved, either.

One question, can you sin as much as you like and still go to heaven?

 

[disciple1]

One question, can you sin as much as you like and still go to heaven?

No you've got to try and do everything out of love, it's written anything not done by faith is sin, love is greater than faith.
My first 30 years studying the bible about an hour or two a day, it appeared it was about lack of sin, the next 5 showed it was about love.

 

[SAAN]

No you've got to try and do everything out of love, it's written anything not done by faith is sin, love is greater than faith.
My first 30 years studying the bible about an hour or two a day, it appeared it was about lack of sin, the next 5 showed it was about love.

Bible says if you love me, keep my commandments. So not keeping the commandments is sin, so while you wont be perfect at doing that, that is where grace comes to play when you sin, so you can repent and turn from those sins.

The commandments are summed up as love god and love one another, so they are a sum, not a cancellation of them

1 John 2:4-6
4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

 

[NIrelandGillian]

Read Romans 6 verses 1-12.

Other verses which speak of Christians continuing to sin can be found here: https//www.openbible.info/topics/christians_who_continue_to_sin

Gillian

 

[Theo Book]

Since Jesus died in our place why do people think we're to try not to sin.
We're just to try to love as Jesus did, not be sinless like he was.
I know we're not to be selfish, or want more money, but no one was ever sinless except Christ and no one will ever be except Christ.

THAT conclusion comes straight from the creeds and doctrines of Men.

Look at what the scripture says about it:
1st - there was Enoch who lived so perfect a life it was said "He pleased God" so that he never suffered death, for God translated him.


"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."(Gen 5:24)
"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."(Heb 11:5)

2ND - THEN there were three, Noah, and Daniel, and Job; who saved only theirselves by their righteousness. "Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. 15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: 16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. 17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it: 18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves. 19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: 20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness."(Ezek 14:14-20)

And why is this not taught in the churches and Bible Studies? Because the teachers of old were so intent upon making Jesus God, then eliminated all study of righteous men from any study whatsoever. NO One teaches this.

Yet, it is scripture from the same pen of God as that narrative of our blessed Son of God, MESSIAH.

We are to "strive" to not sin. That means "Struggle" to be sinless. That means make every effort available to you, to not sin.

And that effort should always begin with a personal study of God's word, separate and away from community organized "Sunday school" type of study, because most of those are directed by Men and Women who studied scripture through an established "Sunday School" regimen of selected scriptures and themes, all designed to hide the truth, not reveal it.

There are many "Righteous" men referenced in scripture, yet the teachers camp on one verse that teaches "There is none righteous, no, not one," Which is a statement God made on only three occasions because it was only true three times in history; not once for all of time.

But "righteousness" is practiced throughout scripture, by Men who have a "strive & struggle" nature, to do what is right because they love God who made them.

You have one verse you can offer that says there iis none righteous, and that is in Romans.

I have 28 that teach differently from that one. Not "contradictory" - just explanatory and revealing.

1) Psalm 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.

2) Psalm 58:11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

3) Prov 10:11 The mouth of a righteous man is a well of life: but violence covereth the mouth of the wicked.

4) Prov 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.

5) Prov 13:5 A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame.

6) Prov 15:19 The way of the slothful man is as an hedge of thorns: but the way of the righteous is made plain.

7) Prov 21:12 The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked: but God overthroweth the wicked for their wickedness.

8) Prov 24:15 Lay not wait, O wicked man, against the dwelling of the righteous; spoil not his resting place:

9) Prov 28:1 The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.

10) Prov 28:12 When righteous men do rejoice, there is great glory: but when the wicked rise, a man is hidden.

11) Prov 29:6 In the transgression of an evil man there is a snare: but the righteous doth sing and rejoice.

12) Ecc 9:1 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.

13) Isa 41:2 Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow.

14) Isa 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.

15) Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

16) Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

17) Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

18) Eze 18:26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

19) Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

20) Hab 1:13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

21) Mat 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

22) Luke 23:47 Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.

23) Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

24) 1 Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

25) James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

26) II Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; 7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: 8 For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds; 9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

27) 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

28) 1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Please study this for your own Soul's peace.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No you've got to try and do everything out of love, it's written anything not done by faith is sin, love is greater than faith.
My first 30 years studying the bible about an hour or two a day, it appeared it was about lack of sin, the next 5 showed it was about love.

Could just be me, but you seem to be jumping around here to where I don't know exactly where you stand.

First question, do you believe in Once Saved Always Saved...period?

More to come but I need to get things straight first.

 

[Bob S]

Bible says if you love me, keep my commandments. So not keeping the commandments is sin, so while you wont be perfect at doing that, that is where grace comes to play when you sin, so you can repent and turn from those sins.

The commandments are summed up as love god and love one another, so they are a sum, not a cancellation of them

1 John 2:4-6
4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

And you would like us to believe that John was referring to the 10 commandments. You have absolutely no basis for trying to spread that false image of John's writings. John had already explained in 1Jn3 verses 19-24 what commands mean and it was not in reference to the 10. You will have do better than that to convince us we are under the ministry of death the 10 commandments. You also have to convince Paul of your theory.

Then you are telling us the 10 commandments are summed up as loving God and loving our fellow man. Please tell us where in scripture some writer sums up that supposed fact.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You will have do better than that to convince us we are under the ministry of death the 10 commandments. You also have to convince Paul of your theory.

Following the rules is a ministry of death? Sounds like something the devil would tell us, but please, do explain.

Then you are telling us the 10 commandments are summed up as loving God and loving our fellow man. Please tell us where in scripture some writer sums up that supposed fact.

Jesus said…"Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt.22:37-40.

 

[Bob S]

Could just be me, but you seem to be jumping around here to where I don't know exactly where you stand.

First question, do you believe in Once Saved Always Saved...period?

More to come but I need to get things straight first.

Jude24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

What do those verses mean to you Kenny? Does Jesus really have the power to keep us right with Him. If we doubt this we really do not have true faith do we?

 

[Bob S]

Following the rules is a ministry of death? Sounds like something the devil would tell us, but please, do explain.

The law can only point out sin. I cannot save and since we are sinners we break the law, so the law became the ministry of death. It was, as written in 2Cor 3, replaced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I guess you can choose which to follow, I choose the Holy Spirit and i thank Jesus for that gift and the gift of His marvelous Grace.

Jesus said…"Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matt.22:37-40.

You have to do better than that to answer my request Kenny. Nowhere in your answer does it tell us that the 10 are the law of love. The law of love is found in the book of the law. Deut and Lev I believe. Hint, don't waste your time a lookin cause ya wont fine it.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Jude24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

What do those verses mean to you Kenny? Does Jesus really have the power to keep us right with Him. If we doubt this we really do not have true faith do we?

You need to pay attention to what was asked. The line of questioning was to figure out where someone stood. You are welcome to jump in on a question that was intended for someone else but at least stick to the protocol/flow.

 

[Kenny'sID]

The law can only point out sin. I cannot save and since we are sinners we break the law, so the law became the ministry of death. It was, as written in 2Cor 3, replaced by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I guess you can choose which to follow, I choose the Holy Spirit and i thank Jesus for that gift and the gift of His marvelous Grace

Nope the law was not always a death sentence, there was a sacrifice system in place, the same system that was replaced by Christ. Christ himself said he didn't come to change anything from the law. All he changed is the way we get forgiveness, he took that on instead of us sacrificing animals. And some of the punishments don't lead to death on earth today by stoning for instance (maybe after death they will lead to eternal death) God/Christ decided to let those things ride until the final judgment, giving us all a fair chance to repent.

Again, there was change in punishment and the way sin was sacrificed for, but the law never changed one dot or tittle. Things were left much the same, but forgiveness prevailed on some of the harsher sins...I assume because a much bigger price was paid for those sins...even the sin of murder and other sins that used to mean death by stoning or whatever.

Wording it as you have is a common tactic, and sounds just like something Satan would do. It makes it sound as if doing right is a bad thing. So easy to see, unless someone has deceived themselves into believing such nonsense. I personally am very careful with what I teach, and I'd recommend all take that attitude, as the consequences to what we teach, if teaching something of the devil, could result in bad news in the end.

You have to do better than that to answer my request Kenny. Nowhere in your answer does it tell us that the 10 are the law of love. The law of love is found in the book of the law. Deut and Lev I believe. Hint, don't waste your time a lookin cause ya wont fine it.

Better? I answered your exact request. Jumping around/dodging, this is classic reaction...take note of it.