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... the one with the longest post wins, right?
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Wait...This monstrosity of a post still fails to address anything I have asked.
I have explained it more than once, but you evidently do not want to see it. When "aion," noun, which means "eternity," and "aionios," adjective which means "eternal," are used to refer to something/someone that cannot be eternity/eternal it is being used hyperbolically.This monstrosity of a post still fails to address anything I have asked.
Please explain how and why "eternity/forever" does not and can not fit into the verses I have provided. Is there more than one eternity? Your sources claim aionon means without beginning or end, yet clearly there are Bible verses that contradict this. Care to explain?
I have explained it more than once, but you evidently do not want to see it. When "aion," noun, which means "eternity," and "aionios," adjective which means "eternal," are used to refer to something/someone that cannot be eternity/eternal it is being used hyperbolically.
When a word is used hyperbolically that does not change the inherent meaning. The hyperbolic use of "aion"/"aionios" is similar to how "kosmos"/"world" is frequently used hyperbolically as in these two and twelve other verses.
Hyperbole! Hyperbole! etc. etc. Who agrees with me the native Greek speaking translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible and Jesus?In the past 10,000 years, who else besides you supports that theory?
About two years ago you said you were going to contact an expert re your theory. How did that turn out?
The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:
"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)
The Greek text may be found here:
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf
In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:
4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)
Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:
Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?
If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:
How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.
ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture.
could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?
12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
FineLinen said:Aionios kolasis in not temporary: it is not a time word. Aionios zoe is also not a time word.
Again: The adjective aionios is rooted in the noun aion. It holds no scope beyond the root upon which it stands.
And again: The Apostle John defines aionios in 9 (nine) words > >
"This IS aionios zoe that we may know You.."
Hyperbole! Hyperbole! etc. etc.
Who agrees with me the native Greek speaking translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible and Jesus?
.....
Hyperbole! Hyperbole! etc. etc. Who agrees with me
I have explained it more than once, but you evidently do not want to see it. When "aion," noun, which means "eternity," and "aionios," adjective which means "eternal," are used to refer to something/someone that cannot be eternity/eternal it is being used hyperbolically.
When a word is used hyperbolically that does not change the inherent meaning. The hyperbolic use of "aion"/"aionios" is similar to how "kosmos"/"world" is frequently used hyperbolically as in these two and twelve other verses.
1 John 5:19Was/is "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one or is this hyperbole?
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
Revelation 12:9Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray or is this hyperbole??
(9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Here is the complete list of "hyperbolic kosmos" verses Matthew 16:26, 1 John 5:19, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:3, Genesis 41:57, Acts of the apostles 17:6, Acts of the apostles 19:35, Acts of the apostles 24:5, Luke 2:1, Acts of the apostles 19:27, Romans 1:8, John 12:19, John 12:19, 1 Corinthians 10:11, James 3:6
You evidently have no clue what the purpose of a hyperbole is. And you have not “explained” anything, you have just copy and pasted the same long exhortations over and over again in an attempt to avoid answering any real questions.
A hyperbole is an EXAGGERATION meant to EMPHASIZE.
When the Bible says that an “aion” has an end or that there is more than one “aion” how is this exaggerating it’s endlessness? It is actually contradicting it so no it is not being used hyperbolically.
Oh, I read it, and my reply is the same. Hyperbole is a exaggeration of excess, not less. Therefore a finite period of time cannot be hyperbole for eternity as finite is less that eternity. It's really that simple. I understand that claiming hyperbole is the only of saving this idea, but it won't work.
That's an odd remark after your view was exposed as being so severely flawed & erroneous. Moreover you didn't even state how it is "omportant" (sic). You do realize that the judgement (Heb.9:27) applies to all men, even believers? As I posted:
Judgement, not hopelessness. Judgement, not no more chances for salvation. Judgement, not Love Omnipotent's love has expired like a carton of milk. Judgement, not the hand of the Almighty is impotent to save.
Six months in prison is a judgment. the death penalty is a judgment. Krisis is a condemning judgment.
Once again you have failed to show a verse that says people can repent in the after life, especially in light of the account of Lazarus and th erich man.
Gods hand is never impotent to save! But if He declared a limit to how long He will wait- then there is a limit! And He did! One human lifetime! If it is impossible for one in their human nature to do anything to please God, what makes you think they will desire to repent after?
Also why would anyone in the flesh wish to repent and live the Christian life with its denials, self sacrifice and humiliation of self if they can die and two weeks later say I am sorry?
"Anyone who knows anything about the Greek of the New Testament (and elsewhere) knows that extraneous articles are used all the time, and that very frequently it’s not at all meaningful. (The converse holds true, too; and it’s the reason why you don’t see John 1:1c translated as “The Word was a god.”)"
"Then in the second part of the verse they *add* a definite article, ‘the’ in front of the word ‘judgement’. Why is this done? It isn’t hard to imagine that it is done to scare people into submission by convincing them it must be done before they die and it is too late."
I think the debate on the term "aionios" is exhausted, wouldn't you agree?
If we let scripture interpret scripture, you would have to be blind to not see that "aionios" does not literally mean FOREVER. Many sources and scholars have decided that aion more correctly translates to "ages" based on its usage in the Bible, and has no real qualifying ability to determine how long. Aionios quite literally and simply means "pertaining to an age".
In Homer it typically referred to one's life or lifespan. Today we use the word as a major division of geological time, subdivided into "eons" for example the Precambrian super-eon or Proterozoic eon.
Some would even argue that "aionios zoe/eternal life" is not about the quantity of life but rather the quality. Jesus Christ Himself gave us the definition of "aionios zoe/eternal life" in John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." He makes no mention of immortality in this definition but rather highlights a relationship with God. I personally believe that having a relationship with God has the power to sustain you unto all ages, but I don't think that is Jesus' main point in John 17.
Here we see some examples of aion/aionios/aionon/aioni used in the context of it not meaning forever.
Romans 16:25: “God…is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages [Greek αιωνιοις] and has now been manifested”.
1 Corinthians 2:7: "We speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages [αἰώνων (aiōnōn)] to our glory;”
Ephesians 3:9: “to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages past [αἰώνων (aiōnōn)] has been hidden in God who created all things.”
Colossians 1:26: “the mystery which has been hidden from past ages [αἰώνων (aiōnōn)] and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints."
Galatians 1:4: “…who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age [αἰῶνος (aiōnos)], according to the will of our God and Father.”
Ephesians 1:21: “…in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age [αἰῶνι (aiōni)] but also in the one to come.
Ephesians 2:7: "When we were dead in our transgressions, God made us alive together with Christ, and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come [αἰῶσιν (aiōsin)] He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.”
Matthew 28:20: "I am with you always, even to the end of the age [αἰῶνος (aiōnos)].”
Titus 1:2: “…in the hope of eternal [αἰωνίου (aiōniou)] life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages [αἰωνίων (aiōniōn)] ago."
Any educated person can read. It's another entirely to refute it. Especially since it comes from expert sources like lexicons.
Matt Slick ; Are you a Calvinist too?
This is the guy that's so afraid of universalism that he banned all discussion of the topic on his site, CARM, many years ago. Though he was happy to welcome all Satanists to discuss Satanism.
I challenged him to a debate but he didn't accept.
Show me where he refuted anything i've said.
And anyone who has studied greek grammar....
It doesn't seem like you even read my post, let alone replied to it.
And what's this about "nothing is impossible with gods"?
Who are these "gods"? How many do you believe in?
The Arrogance Of Religion
Picking up my copy of Karl Barth’s Commentary on Romans, as I often do, I just opened it up at random, and began to read when the phrase, “the arrogance of religion” caught my attention. I believe, from my recollection of that moment, Barth repeated himself in a short context. Whatever one might think of the man who was considered the greatest theologian of the twentieth century, one would have to admit from even a cursory reading of Barth, that he, in the strongest language, exposed the difference between God and what religion presumes to know and declare of Him. According to Barth, there is between the two a vast and deep chasm.
Sometimes the arrogance of religion is just plain out-in-the-open apparent.
J. B. Phillips took that arrogance to task noting that God doesn’t not fit in our conceptual box(es), declaring appropriately, that our God (the God according to us) is too small. Yes, I’m generalizing when I say, “our” and “us,” because the indictment is applicable to all in some measure or another since we all have an inclination toward the kind of presumption, as the story goes, of a child telling her teacher that she was drawing a picture of God. “But, no one knows what God looks like,” explained the teacher.
Nonplused at that claim, the child said, “well they will when I’m through.” Yep, that sums up the arrogance of religion.
But it’s not always just plain out-in-the-open apparent; it’s more, as the saying goes, hidden in plain sight… -John Gavazzoni
-Continued below-
The Arrogance of Religion
Noli: There is no time limit on the love & grace & mercy of God.
NONE
It is time for you to learn to sing the steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases!
The Arrogance Of Religion
Picking up my copy of Karl Barth’s Commentary on Romans, as I often do, I just opened it up at random, and began to read when the phrase, “the arrogance of religion” caught my attention. I believe, from my recollection of that moment, Barth repeated himself in a short context. Whatever one might think of the man who was considered the greatest theologian of the twentieth century, one would have to admit from even a cursory reading of Barth, that he, in the strongest language, exposed the difference between God and what religion presumes to know and declare of Him. According to Barth, there is between the two a vast and deep chasm.
Sometimes the arrogance of religion is just plain out-in-the-open apparent.
J. B. Phillips took that arrogance to task noting that God doesn’t not fit in our conceptual box(es), declaring appropriately, that our God (the God according to us) is too small. Yes, I’m generalizing when I say, “our” and “us,” because the indictment is applicable to all in some measure or another since we all have an inclination toward the kind of presumption, as the story goes, of a child telling her teacher that she was drawing a picture of God. “But, no one knows what God looks like,” explained the teacher.
Nonplused at that claim, the child said, “well they will when I’m through.” Yep, that sums up the arrogance of religion.
But it’s not always just plain out-in-the-open apparent; it’s more, as the saying goes, hidden in plain sight… -John Gavazzoni
-Continued below-
The Arrogance of Religion
For HIs children yes!
Well Barth has some great writings, but He was also a product of the liberalism of the Church in Doctrine.
And why would you so honor his works? He rejects universalism as heretical??
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