Saved from what?

Setyoufree

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We've all heard someone exclaim "I'm saved", but my question is saved from what? From what exactly did Christ come to save mankind?

I'm not sure, but I think most will say the fires of hell? If that's your position okay, but that's not what condemns the unbeliever to the 2nd death. What do I mean by the 2nd death? Go to Revelation 20:14 "The lake of fire is the second death."

In other words the "lake of fire" (what many term "hell") produces the 2nd death. What is the 2nd death? Well, it is goodbye to life forever with no hope of a resurrection because you have willfully and persistently rejected Christ as your only possible ticket to heaven.

So, what condemns the unbeliever to the 2nd death? Again, we know unbelief brings death, but what is it that condemns for the sin of unbelief?:confused:
 
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samcarternx

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When the believer has been born into the spiritual kingdom of God he has united with eternal life. The chemistry continues in the physical until it dies because it cannot inherit eternal life. The chemistry will be released by God to return to its former state, that is energy. If one is still locked in the chemistry and has no access to eternal life, they to will forever be in the energy (Matter times the speed of light squared = energy)
 
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rogueapologist

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We've all heard someone exclaim "I'm saved", but my question is saved from what? From what exactly did Christ come to save mankind?

I'm not sure, but I think most will say the fires of hell? If that's your position okay, but that's not what condemns the unbeliever to the 2nd death. What do I mean by the 2nd death? Go to Revelation 20:14 "The lake of fire is the second death."

In other words the "lake of fire" (what many term "hell") produces the 2nd death. What is the 2nd death? Well, it is goodbye to life forever with no hope of a resurrection because you have willfully and persistently rejected Christ as your only possible ticket to heaven.

So, what condemns the unbeliever to the 2nd death? Again, we know unbelief brings death, but what is it that condemns for the sin of unbelief?:confused:

The Scriptures make it quite clear that we are saved from the power of sin and death, from everlasting dissolution and unbecoming. This state of being (or rather, "un-being") is the natural result of being severed by self-will from the life-giving presence of God, and is what many call "hell", "damnation", "wrath", etc.
 
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Setyoufree

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The Scriptures make it quite clear that we are saved from the power of sin and death....

Yes, "in Christ". In fact I'll quote Romans 8:1,2

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you (i.e., the believer) free from the law of sin and death."

You see in the holy history of Christ you and I have been set free from our sin nature and condemnation. Notice, however, that's in Christ.

By accepting this truth (the gospel) we are no longer under condemnation. However, we still have our nature to contend with.

The question then is what condemned us before Christ? Better yet, from what have we been saved?

Here's another clue besides Gal 3:13 - Romans 7:6
 
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Setyoufree

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I'll let Paul spell it out (note the words in "red"):

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us

Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound...

Christ came to save us from His own law because it justly condemns us.

Is then the law bad - is it sin? Paul asks that question in Romans 7:7 Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law.

You see the law is used to prove we are sinners so we will accept Christ and be justified through faith. The law's not bad, we are bad and to remain "under law" means condemnation. So Christ came to deliver us from under the law to under grace.
 
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christcentred

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I think we need to go back further. The law came from someone. When Jesus saved us he saved us from himself.

That seems crazy. But we've got to understand that it was God who was most offended by sin.

"But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
(Romans 2:5 ESV)

God is the one who judges. God is the one who pours out his wrath on the ungodly. It is he who sends them to hell. It is he who made the law. God is the offended party.

Yet we have something even more amazing:

"but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life."
(Romans 5:8-10 ESV)

We were sinners, we were facing the wrath of God, we were enemies. Yet God made the first move! He came to rescue us from sin! How amazing is that!

In the UK there was a famous situation of a man's son being murdered. This Christian father went on national television and told the murderer he forgave him. Despite being the one sinned against, he made the first move.

In the same way, we have sinned against God. Yet he made the first move (and the last move and every move in between). He reconciled us to himself, though we were his enemies.

Amazing isn't it?
 
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Setyoufree

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I think we need to go back further. The law came from someone. When Jesus saved us he saved us from himself.

Your argument is with Paul:

Gal 3:10 "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM"

Yes, God gave the law. Why? So we could obey it and gain heaven? No, that's legalism. "By the works of the law no flesh will be justified". Then why did God give the law?

To turn sin into transgression.

Go to Rom 11:32 "For God has shut up all in disobedience (transgression) so that He may show mercy to all. "

Now go to Gal 3:19,22-23

"What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions (how so?).... 22 the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until the faith (Jesus) should be revealed."

So the law was given to put you in death row (it made matters worse for you) so you would see your need of Christ's righteousness. To remain under law means death!

Everyone who rejects Christ's righteousness has deceived himself or herself that he/she can stand before God's law in the judgment clothed in their own righteousness. Only "in Christ Jesus" are we acceptable before the Father and His law. Outside Christ is condemnation and death!
 
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rogueapologist

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I think we need to go back further. The law came from someone. When Jesus saved us he saved us from himself.

Oh boy, here we go.

That seems crazy. But we've got to understand that it was God who was most offended by sin.

It seems crazy because it's philosophically ridiculous. It signals a terrifically inconsistent understanding of the nature of God.

God is the one who judges. God is the one who pours out his wrath on the ungodly. It is he who sends them to hell. It is he who made the law. God is the offended party.

Let's think about God for a second. As God is God, God is just in whatever God does, correct? That is, God could do whatever human minds might understand as "sin", but God's doing it would still be perfectly justified because God can only do good, since the determination of God's "goodness" is not based on what God does, but who God is.

In the same way, we must think about God's justice. If God is just, it is not because God does "x" or "y" in order to demonstrate divine justice, as if the determination of God's justice were made by God's alignment with some standard external to God. To the contrary, the justice of God is demonstrated precisely in who God is, e.g., God.

In this way, whether God damns every single human to hell for the fun of it, or pardons all of humanity because of indigestion, God is perfectly "just" in either (and both) scenario. This is a necessary conclusion, as God's justice is based not upon the alignment of God's actions with a standard of "justice" which is external to God, but rather because God is God, and is therefore necessarily just.

Because of this conclusion, the notion of the necessity of God doing "x" because God is "offended" by sin is fundamentally absurd. Whether God arbitrarily self-flaggelates Godself, or simply laughs and "gets over it", there is no necessity for God to act in any particular way in response to human sin. Each response would be equally just and perfectly in keeping with God's holiness, given that God's justice and holiness are not based on what God does, but are terminated in the sheer reality that God is God.

Now then, with these obvious and elementary concepts established, we must move the evaluation of your proposal.

* If God is not bound by any power external to Godself to act in any particular way to human sin;
* And if God kills Godself on the cross because of human sin;
* We must necessarily conclude that God kills Godself on the cross precisely, and only, because God wants to.

Based on this conclusion, though, what picture have we made of God? I don't deny that it's a perfectly legitimate picture...after all, if God is a sado-[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], God is perfectly justified in being such. But I'll pass on worshiping such a God, thanks.

Yet we have something even more amazing:

"but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life."
(Romans 5:8-10 ESV)

We were sinners, we were facing the wrath of God, we were enemies. Yet God made the first move! He came to rescue us from sin! How amazing is that!

But this "rescue from sin", in your own words, is really a "rescue from God" While we were still sinners, Christ died to save us from himself. Given that Christ could have simply gotten over whatever animosity God has toward humanity, he chose to kill himself to demonstrate just how neurotic the eternal God is.

Obviously, this is a different translation, but is precisely what you are advocating.

In the UK there was a famous situation of a man's son being murdered. This Christian father went on national television and told the murderer he forgave him. Despite being the one sinned against, he made the first move.

The father committed suicide (this is the logical outcome of your attempted analogy)? I'm confused...

In the same way, we have sinned against God. Yet he made the first move (and the last move and every move in between). He reconciled us to himself, though we were his enemies.

But there was no move to be made! If the problem of sin is really God's anger against humanity, the ONLY thing that needs to happen is that God simply needs to get over God's anger about sin. As I already showed, God simply popping a Prozac and moving on from divine anger over human sin is perfectly in keeping with the holiness and justice of God.

So then, if God DOESN'T do this, but goes to the absurdly roundabout way of completely unnecessary divine self-flagellation, we have to question what other neuroses are lurking within the divine nature.
 
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Setyoufree

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Gal 3:10 "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM"

Rom 11:32 "For God has shut up all in disobedience (transgression) so that He may show mercy to all. "

Now go to Gal 3:19,22-23 "What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions (how so?).... 22 the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until the faith (Jesus) should be revealed."

So the law was given to put you in death row (it made matters worse for you) so you would see your need of Christ's righteousness.

I left out the best one. Romans 5:20 "Now the law came in to increase the trespass..."

In other words the law was given not to make matters better, but rather to make matters worse. The law came to show us that we were and are a bunch of sinners. Why? So it could legally condemn us to death!
 
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disciple1

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So Moses ministry brought death and Christs ministry brought righteousness.
2 Corinthians chapter 3 verses 6-9
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, will not the ministry of the spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
Colossians chapter 2 verses 2-5
My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how orderly you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.
(So I think what we need to be saved from is selfishness.)
 
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Setyoufree

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(So I think what we need to be saved from is selfishness.)

Well, that's why you and I had to be delivered from under law because no one is keeping the law. What does the law demand?

Gal 5:4 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself"

How many commands in "Love your neighbor as yourself"?

It doesn't say love yourself & love your neighbor. It says love your neighbor as you love yourself. Self-love is a given. That's the way we are born. We are born bent-to-self (selfish). The law demands instead of loving ourselves that we love our neighbors. The problem with God's love in a world saturated with self-love is if you live Godly (no self-love) you will end up in poverty.

Did this happen to Christ?


"Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head." Matt 8:20
 
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