Saved by faith?

[k4c]

It's time for you to respond as we're nudged to respond to your threads and posts.... before I chase more of your questions arround.

I really have not ask you many questions but this one is important. But if you don't wanna answer it, I understand.

 

[Cribstyl]

I really have not ask you many questions but this one is important. But if you don't wanna answer it, I understand.

It you turn to field a question.
What do you know about the doctrine of faith?

 

[k4c]

It you turn to field a question.
What do you know about the doctrine of faith?

Who are you, do I know you?

 

[riverrat]

The new covenant, as all the other covenants, are for the nation of Israel and not for the body of Christ.

 

[k4c]

The new covenant, as all the other covenants, are for the nation of Israel and not for the body of Christ.

The body of Christ is grafted into the commonwealth of Israel and the covenant of promise.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The body of Christ is grafted into the commonwealth of Israel and the covenant of promise.

From my reading of Romans 11, believers are wild branches who are grafted into a tree/root that is holy. These wild branches are grafted in among Israelites, who are the natural branches. All branches -- be they natural or wild -- are grafted into a holy entity.

From my reading of Romans 11, I can find nothing to confirm that wild branches are grafted into an old covenant that God made with Isreal. On the contrary, Hebrews 8 confirms that Israel has entered into a new covenant that is not like the old. Rather, it's based on better promises.

BFA

 

[Cribstyl]

The body of Christ is grafted into the commonwealth of Israel and the covenant of promise.

That should be easy to prove if it's completely true but it's not completely true.

 

[k4c]

From my reading of Romans 11, believers are wild branches who are grafted into a tree/root that is holy. These wild branches are grafted in among Israelites, who are the natural branches. All branches -- be they natural or wild -- are grafted into a holy entity.

From my reading of Romans 11, I can find nothing to confirm that wild branches are grafted into an old covenant that God made with Isreal. On the contrary, Hebrews 8 confirms that Israel has entered into a new covenant that is not like the old. Rather, it's based on better promises.

BFA

Read Epheison 2:12 and see what you were like before Christ. Something must happen to bring us in or graft us in.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Read Epheison 2:12 and see what you were like before Christ. Something must happen to bring us in or graft us in.

Yes. Something must happen. According to Ephesians 2, here's what it is:

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ."

"For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit."
​

BFA

 

[riverrat]

Byfaithalone1 wrote:

From my reading of Romans 11, believers are wild branches who are grafted into a tree/root that is holy. These wild branches are grafted in among Israelites, who are the natural branches. All branches -- be they natural or wild -- are grafted into a holy entity.

From my reading of Romans 11, I can find nothing to confirm that wild branches are grafted into an old covenant that God made with Isreal. On the contrary, Hebrews 8 confirms that Israel has entered into a new covenant that is not like the old. Rather, it's based on better promises.

Thanks for your reply BFA. Even though Rom 11 has always been confusing to me I do agree that the passage has nothing to do with a covenant with Israel. The Scripture concerning the new covenant in Heb 8 is with Israel and indicates a time in the future as it is written in the future tense. I think this must be Christ's millennial earthly kingdom when believing gentiles will be united with believing jews

 

[k4c]

Yes. Something must happen. According to Ephesians 2, here's what it is:

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ."

"For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit."
​

BFA

What are your thoughts on these verses? Do they teach a yoke of bondage? Do they teach the Ten Commandments are done away with? Do they teach new covenant believers to disregard the Ten Commandments? Do they teach grace does away with responsibility to God's Law? What saith thou?

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, `You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.''

The New Covenant teaches us a principle that God is the only one to be worshiped.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make yourselves any idols neither shall you worship them.

The New Covenant teaches us to keep ourselves from idols.

Luke 1:49 because the Powerful One has done great things for me. His name is holy.

Exodus 20:7 "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

The New Covenant teaches us that God's Name is holy.

Mark 2:28 "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."

The New Covenant says Jesus is Lord of THE Sabbath. The word (THE) is referring to a specific amount of holy time identified in the fourth commandment as the Sabbath day.

Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.''

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

The New Covenant teaches us that doing good during that specific holy time called, the Sabbath, is not a violation of it.

Ephesians 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise: "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."

Exodus 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.''

The New Covenant tells us to honor our mother and father and in doing so we have a promise. That promise was established in the fifth commandment.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."

The New Covenant tells us not to be a murder confirming the sixth commandment.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery".

The New Covenant tells us not to commit adultery.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Exodus 20:15 "You shall not steal".

The New Covenant tells us not to steal.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, each one speak truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.

Exodus 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

The New Covenant tells us not to lie.

Luke 12:15 And He said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness.

Exodus 20:17 "You shall not covet".

The New Covenant tells us not to covet.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

What are your thoughts on these verses?

My thoughts are that you've provided a series of random verses written by different authors during different time periods to different audiences about different topics.

May I suggest that we pick a verse and discuss it in its full context? We started by discussing Romans 11. Then we moved to Ephesians 2. Anything more you'd like to discuss about either of these chapters before we move on to an entirely different passage?

You previously indicated that Ephesians 2 would tell us what needed to happen before we could be grafted in. Are we in agreement that what needs to happen (as outlined in Ephesians 2:15) is that, in His flesh, the law must be set aside with its commands and its regulations?

BFA

 

[k4c]

Byfaithalone1;My thoughts are that you've provided a series of random verses written by different authors during different time periods to different audiences about different topics.

If the Apostle Paul, John, Mark, or any other teacher in the New Testament tells a person that adultery is a sin or that believers are not to lie, steal, murder and so on, guess what? It applies to you too. Your rejection of this is where your whole belief system falls apart and is where we plainly can see that it's built on sand.

May I suggest that we pick a verse and discuss it in its full context? We started by discussing Romans 11. Then we moved to Ephesians 2. Anything more you'd like to discuss about either of these chapters before we move on to an entirely different passage?

Do you really think by reading the full context of where someone says to keep yourself from idols it's going to some how magically allow you to worship idols. You see, I don't have time for such folly. This kind of unbiblical reasoning or wrenching of the Scriptures is just a means to promote lawlessness and wear out the saints.

You previously indicated that Ephesians 2 would tell us what needed to happen before we could be grafted in. Are we in agreement that what needs to happen (as outlined in Ephesians 2:15) is that, in His flesh, the law must be set aside with its commands and its regulations?

Read Epheison 2:12 and see what you were like before Christ. Something must happen to bring us in or graft us in.
​

Yes. Something must happen. According to Ephesians 2, here's what it is:

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ."
"For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit."
​

BFA

What did the death of Jesus accomplish?

1. It paid our sin debt. Our sin debt has to do with our past transgressions of the Law.

2. It fullfill the shadows of all the animal sacrifices, feast days, ceremonial drinks, foods and washings. All of which were created and estabilshed as a result of sin.

If anyone has even a little bit of Bible understanding they will see very clearly that Jesus' death didn't do away with adultery, lying, stealing murder and so on being identified as sin. So when we read how Jesus' death abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances it is referring to all the cerimonial laws, shadows and penalties.

Colossians 2:16-17 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Hebrews 9:9-10 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

This is not referring to the Ten Commandments because as you can plainly see, the Ten Commandments are still alive and well in the New Testament.

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, `You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.''

The New Covenant teaches us a principle that God is the only one to be worshiped.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make yourselves any idols neither shall you worship them.

The New Covenant teaches us to keep ourselves from idols.

Luke 1:49 because the Powerful One has done great things for me. His name is holy.

Exodus 20:7 "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

The New Covenant teaches us that God's Name is holy.

Mark 2:28 "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."

The New Covenant says Jesus is Lord of THE Sabbath. The word (THE) is referring to a specific amount of holy time identified in the fourth commandment as the Sabbath day.

Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.''

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

The New Covenant teaches us that doing good during that specific holy time called, the Sabbath, is not a violation of it.

Ephesians 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise: "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."

Exodus 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.''

The New Covenant tells us to honor our mother and father and in doing so we have a promise. That promise was established in the fifth commandment.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."

The New Covenant tells us not to be a murder confirming the sixth commandment.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery".

The New Covenant tells us not to commit adultery.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Exodus 20:15 "You shall not steal".

The New Covenant tells us not to steal.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, each one speak truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.

Exodus 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

The New Covenant tells us not to lie.

Luke 12:15 And He said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness.

Exodus 20:17 "You shall not covet".

The New Covenant tells us not to covet.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Your rejection of this is where your whole belief system falls apart and is where we plainly can see that it's built on sand.

It's no wonder you feel worn out. You're arguing against a belief I don't even hold. You claim I've rejected principles relating to honoring God, the importance of rest, honoring parents, not murdering, stealing or coveting, etc. As a point of fact, I have not rejected any of these principles. Each of these principles existed before the law was added.

You see, I don't have time for such folly. This kind of unbiblical reasoning or wrenching of the Scriptures

I prefer to look at one passage at a time and consider it in its full context. In my mind, this is the opposite of "wrenching of the Scriptures" and is anything but "folly." Feel free to pick a passage that you'd like to start with and I'd be happy to discuss it with you further and in greater depth.

In the meantime, I noticed that you seem to have abandoned our discussion of Ephesians 2 and are now pulling texts from a variety of other places. You seem to be trying to weave a tapestry with unrelated verses without considering the context of any of them. I sense that there's much more to explore in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2 before we move on to other topics. Is that a discussion that interests you?

is just a means to promote lawlessness

In case I haven't been clear on this in the past, I do not promote lawlessness. I'll assume that this clarification is enough to encourage you to cease and desist from further comments like this.

and wear out the saints

I wouldn't want you to be further worn out. Please know you're under no obligation to fellowship with me further if you'd prefer not to. I'm happy to dialogue further when you're fully rested. Just let me know.

What did the death of Jesus accomplish?

According to Ephesians 2, in His flesh, the law must be set aside with its commands and its regulations. I realize that His death accomplished other things as well, but this is the point we haven't yet connected on. If it isn't a topic that interests you, we can certainly move on. I wouldn't want you to get too worn out.

BFA

 

[k4c]

It's no wonder you feel worn out. You're arguing against a belief I don't even hold. You claim I've rejected principles relating to honoring God, the importance of rest, honoring parents, not murdering, stealing or coveting, etc. As a point of fact, I have not rejected any of these principles. Each of these principles existed before the law was added.

I prefer to look at one passage at a time and consider it in its full context. In my mind, this is the opposite of "wrenching of the Scriptures" and is anything but "folly." Feel free to pick a passage that you'd like to start with and I'd be happy to discuss it with you further and in greater depth.

In the meantime, I noticed that you seem to have abandoned our discussion of Ephesians 2 and are now pulling texts from a variety of other places. You seem to be trying to weave a tapestry with unrelated verses without considering the context of any of them. I sense that there's much more to explore in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2 before we move on to other topics. Is that a discussion that interests you?

In case I haven't been clear on this in the past, I do not promote lawlessness. I'll assume that this clarification is enough to encourage you to cease and desist from further comments like this.

I wouldn't want you to be further worn out. Please know you're under no obligation to fellowship with me further if you'd prefer not to. I'm happy to dialogue further when you're fully rested. Just let me know.

According to Ephesians 2, in His flesh, the law must be set aside with its commands and its regulations. I realize that His death accomplished other things as well, but this is the point we haven't yet connected on. If it isn't a topic that interests you, we can certainly move on. I wouldn't want you to get too worn out.

BFA

Smooth..

Romans 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

James 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.

You are missing a big chunk of truth in your belief system.

Jesus came to redeem us. This redemption has to with paying a debt we could not pay.

When a person breaks the Law there is a punishment that the Law requires and the punishment is death. This is what we can't pay so Jesus did.

John 8:5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"

When we stand before the Law as a sinner we stand condemned to die. But if we have the blood of Christ, the condemning power of the Law against sin has no power. But this does not mean we can go out a freely sin now. Listen to the very words of Jesus in the same passage.

John 8:11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more."

He tells her there is no condemnation but He also tells her to sin no more.

The death of Jesus paid for sin, the Law is not sin.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not!

The grace of God is what pardons us through the blood of Christ but does the grace of God now give us freedom to break God's Law?

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Shall we break God's Law so that grace may abound? Certaily not!

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?

Jesus was born under the Law as relates to the curse. He had to die for sin, even though He never sinned.

Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),

Just because we are not under the curse of the Law, which is found in the penalty, not the Law itself, doesn't mean we can now break God's Law.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Until you, and everyone else here, understands these verses you are missing a big chunk of truth, which leaves you with a belief system built on sand.

Jesus didn't die to take away the Ten Commandments, they are still alive and well in the New Testament.

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, `You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.''

The New Covenant teaches us a principle that God is the only one to be worshiped.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make yourselves any idols neither shall you worship them.

The New Covenant teaches us to keep ourselves from idols.

Luke 1:49 because the Powerful One has done great things for me. His name is holy.

Exodus 20:7 "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

The New Covenant teaches us that God's Name is holy.

Mark 2:28 "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."

The New Covenant says Jesus is Lord of THE Sabbath. The word (THE) is referring to a specific amount of holy time identified in the fourth commandment as the Sabbath day.

Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.''

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

The New Covenant teaches us that doing good during that specific holy time called, the Sabbath, is not a violation of it.

Ephesians 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise: "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."

Exodus 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.''

The New Covenant tells us to honor our mother and father and in doing so we have a promise. That promise was established in the fifth commandment.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."

The New Covenant tells us not to be a murder confirming the sixth commandment.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery".

The New Covenant tells us not to commit adultery.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Exodus 20:15 "You shall not steal".

The New Covenant tells us not to steal.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, each one speak truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.

Exodus 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

The New Covenant tells us not to lie.

Luke 12:15 And He said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness.

Exodus 20:17 "You shall not covet".

The New Covenant tells us not to covet.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

You are missing a big chunk of truth in your belief system.

Not at all. I simply prefer diving deeply into Scripture as opposed to the Twitter/Tweet method. If you'd like to dive into a particular chapter and explore its full context, let me know and I'd be happy to discuss further. Perhaps at that time, you might be rested enough to discuss Ephesians 2:15 in its full context. In the meantime, I wish you some great rest and relaxation.

BFA

 

[k4c]

Not at all. I simply prefer diving deeply into Scripture as opposed to the Twitter/Tweet method. If you'd like to dive into a particular chapter and explore its full context, let me know and I'd be happy to discuss further. Perhaps at that time, you might be rested enough to discuss Ephesians 2:15 in its full context. In the meantime, I wish you some great rest and relaxation.

BFA

Okay, I'll play for a little while.

Lets start our diving expedition here.

Ephesians 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise: "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."

According to this verse, does it confirm the fifth commandment or not?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Okay, I'll play for a little while.

Lets start our diving expedition here.

Ephesians 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise: "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."

According to this verse, does it confirm the fifth commandment or not?

Ephesians 5-6 confirms the principle "submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." Paul notes that this principle is similar to the principle set out in the law. There are all sorts of principles set out in the law that continue to be valuable. According to Ephesians 5-6, this include principles relating to husband/wife relationships, parent/child relationships and servant/master relationships.

Remember that . . . just 3 short chapters prior . . . Paul confirmed that Jesus Christ set aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. Paul is appealing to principles, not law.

BFA

 

[Cribstyl]

Here's another thread gone wild because I disagreed with the commentary.
I responded to the OP, and answered questions. The fact that K4c wont hold himself to the same standards exposes that he cannot prove what he teaches to be truth.

 

[k4c]

Here's another thread gone wild because I disagreed with the commentary.
I responded to the OP, and answered quetions. The fact that K4c wont hold himself to the same standards esposes that he cannot prove what he teaches to be truth.

Hi Cribstyl, how has your Sabbath day been?