Saved and still sin?

[Hammster]

By the power of Christ, but it takes action on our part as well. Jesus said, 'Abide in Me, and I in you.' We need to stay with Jesus, to abide in Him, to stay in connection with the living Vine. Spiritual growth requires spiritual nurture, just as physical growth requires physical nurture. We need to feast on the Word of God, to pray, to share our faith, and to resist temptation by the power of Christ, to grow spiritually.

So how do you know when you have done enough? How do you know that your 'abiding' is enough? And if He who began a good work in you will perfect it, when does He start?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Ir reads: WHO ARE IN CHRIST.

NOT: WHO WERE IN CHRIST AT ONE TIME

How can one cease to be in Christ Jesus?

Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The "us" in verse 39 is referring to those in v 1, "Those who are in Christ Jesus". And Paul mentions anything and everything, including ourselves, when he finishes off his list by saying "nor any other created thing". There is not one created that has the ability to separate those who are in Christ from God.

 

[archierieus]

So how do you know when you have done enough? How do you know that your 'abiding' is enough? And if He who began a good work in you will perfect it, when does He start?

This is where I strongly disagree with the RC position, and really like Dr. Luther's teaching on justification by faith. "We" CANNOT do enough. 'All our righteousness is as filthy rags.' Our salvation from beginning to end is based upon the completed, perfect work of Christ upon Calvary. When we accept Christ, we are adopted into the family of God, and our adoption is not a yo-yo. God began that good work within us, and He will continue to sanctify us if we will continue in connection with Him. During the sanctification process, which is the work of a lifetime, we continue to be covered by the shed blood of Jesus. During this lifelong process, we ourselves are going a direction. Either we are drawing closer to Jesus, or we are withdrawing from our first love and turning back to the world and backsliding. In the end, WE will make that final decision. We will either end up wholly consecrated to God, or, like the Jews who rejected Christ, we will be wholly in rebellion against God, WE will renounce the adoption, just like the Jews who said, 'We have no king but Caesar.' God gave them a second chance, 70 times 7 years after the 70 yrs. of exile, to make their final decision, and they did so. And God in His judgment, very simply ratifies our decision. There will be some whose names are now written in the Lamb's Book of Life, who will be blotted out of that Book in the end, see Rev. 2, 3, ch. 22, etc.

 

[archierieus]

How can one cease to be in Christ Jesus?

Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The "us" in verse 39 is referring to those in v 1, "Those who are in Christ Jesus". And Paul mentions anything and everything, including ourselves, when he finishes off his list by saying "nor any other created thing". There is not one created that has the ability to separate those who are in Christ from God.

Of course, Paul does not mention 'including ourselves.' 'Any other created thing' could easily refer to any other created thing aside from ourselves. Paul does teach that we can lose our salvation, so that understanding would be consistent.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

Of course, Paul does not mention 'including ourselves.' 'Any other created thing' could easily refer to any other created thing aside from ourselves. Paul does teach that we can lose our salvation, so that understanding would be consistent.

Haha. If there were ever a kind of "ducking out" on a response, this would be it.

Let's see. What one thing do all of the items mentioned in Romans 8:38-39 have in common?

death
life
angels
principalities
things present
things to come
powers
height
depth

They exist within creation. So Paul clearly ties the knot here when he says-

nor any other created thing

He is clearly saying "all of that I have said plus everything else that has been created". That includes ourselves.

Just the fact that he says life can't separate us -
ζωή, meaning
1) life
a) the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate
b) every living soul
No life can separate, and nothing in our life can separate us. Does that not include ourselves?

Tell me, how odd a progression it would, if Paul were in fact saying:

For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything other than ourselves, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And you, archierieus, always claiming to be the great and masterful exegete, propose nonsense such as this?

 

[Hammster]

This is where I strongly disagree with the RC position, and really like Dr. Luther's teaching on justification by faith. "We" CANNOT do enough. 'All our righteousness is as filthy rags.' Our salvation from beginning to end is based upon the completed, perfect work of Christ upon Calvary. When we accept Christ, we are adopted into the family of God, and our adoption is not a yo-yo. God began that good work within us, and He will continue to sanctify us if we will continue in connection with Him. During the sanctification process, which is the work of a lifetime, we continue to be covered by the shed blood of Jesus. During this lifelong process, we ourselves are going a direction. Either we are drawing closer to Jesus, or we are withdrawing from our first love and turning back to the world and backsliding. In the end, WE will make that final decision. We will either end up wholly consecrated to God, or, like the Jews who rejected Christ, we will be wholly in rebellion against God, WE will renounce the adoption, just like the Jews who said, 'We have no king but Caesar.' God gave them a second chance, 70 times 7 years after the 70 yrs. of exile, to make their final decision, and they did so. And God in His judgment, very simply ratifies our decision. There will be some whose names are now written in the Lamb's Book of Life, who will be blotted out of that Book in the end, see Rev. 2, 3, ch. 22, etc.

So, what you are saying is that we can unjustify ourselves.

 

[chestertonrules]

What do you believe between these two statements?

Once a person converts to Christ he is always saved no matter how much he sins.

Or

Once a person converts to Christ, it is his duty to stop sinning (be an over comer). If he continues in sin then he is not really a Christian.



Please post scripture or scripture references.






Jesus Rules!

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".


Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".



2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".


2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."



Hebrews 10:26-27 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."


Hebrews 10:29 "How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?"

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

 

[MrPolo]

What do you believe between these two statements?

Once a person converts to Christ he is always saved no matter how much he sins.

Or

Once a person converts to Christ, it is his duty to stop sinning (be an over comer). If he continues in sin then he is not really a Christian.

I haven't yet seen anyone state that neither of these statements are true. Regarding the second one, Most Christians do continue to sin. We fall and we get up, we fall and we get up. We beat our chests and say "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner." That's not to say that there have been some ascetics or the like who have altogether or nearly perfected their wills toward God while still on earth. But most Christians still sin in their lives.

 

[heymikey80]

Of course, Paul does not mention 'including ourselves.' 'Any other created thing' could easily refer to any other created thing aside from ourselves. Paul does teach that we can lose our salvation, so that understanding would be consistent.

What life is Paul talking about?

What death is Paul talking about?

 

[Rightglory]

MrPolo,

I haven't yet seen anyone state that neither of these statements are true.

A very astute observation.

 

[BrotherHicks]

1 John 3:2-10
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[BrotherHicks]

Ezekiel 18:24
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.