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Saved and still sin?

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MostRadicalManEver

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What do you believe between these two statements?

Once a person converts to Christ he is always saved no matter how much he sins.

Or

Once a person converts to Christ, it is his duty to stop sinning (be an over comer). If he continues in sin then he is not really a Christian.



Please post scripture or scripture references.






Jesus Rules!
 

emmauk007

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Once a person is saved, is he always saved?

Jude 5, RS: “I desire to remind you, though you were once for all fully informed, that he who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.” (Italics added.)

Matt. 24:13, RS: “He who endures to the end will be saved.” (So a person’s final salvation is not determined at the moment that he begins to put faith in Jesus.)

Phil. 2:12, RS: “As you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (This was addressed to “the saints,” or holy ones, at Philippi, as stated in Philippians 1:1. Paul urged them not to be overly confident but to realize that their final salvation was not yet assured.)

Heb. 10:26, 27, RS: “If we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries.” (Thus the Bible does not go along with the idea that no matter what sins a person may commit after he is “saved” he will not lose his salvation. It encourages faithfulness. See also Hebrews 6:4-6, where it is shown that even a person anointed with holy spirit can lose his hope of salvation.)

Is anything more than faith needed in order to gain salvation?

Eph. 2:8, 9, RS: “By grace [“undeserved kindness,” NW] you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast.” (The entire provision for salvation is an expression of God’s undeserved kindness. There is no way that a descendant of Adam can gain salvation on his own, no matter how noble his works are. Salvation is a gift from God given to those who put faith in the sin-atoning value of the sacrifice of his Son.)

Heb. 5:9, RS: “He [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.” (Italics added.) (Does this conflict with the statement that Christians are “saved through faith”? Not at all. Obedience simply demonstrates that their faith is genuine.)

Jas. 2:14, 26, RS: “What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” (A person does not earn salvation by his works. But anyone who has genuine faith will have works to go with it—works of obedience to the commands of God and Christ, works that demonstrate his faith and love. Without such works, his faith is dead.)

Acts 16:30, 31, RS: “‘Men, what must I do to be saved?’ And they [Paul and Silas] said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” (If that man and his household truly believed, would they not act in harmony with their belief? Certainly.)
 
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heymikey80

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Should I toggle back & forth between them?
Once a person converts to Christ he is always saved no matter how much he sins.
There's such a thing as false conversion. John the Baptist attacked scribes & Pharisees coming out to hear him. Jesus pointed out people who followed the Gospel for a time and then were choked out by the cares of life or the attractions of something else. (Mt 13)
When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. 22As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty." Mt 13:19-23
However -- someone who's actually been changed by the Spirit of God can't but return, repent, and be saved. He's a "new creature" 2 Cor 5:17. God will seek him out as a child of God (Jn 1:12-13, Mt 18:12). There's no destruction of this relationship.
you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one." John 10:26-30

And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36As it is written,
"For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:30-39

Once a person converts to Christ, it is his duty to stop sinning (be an over comer). If he continues in sin then he is not really a Christian.
Whether a person is a Christian or not, it's his duty to stop sinning. The Law demands it, a good God demands it, so I'm unsure the point here. A Christian is not freed from duty ... he's freed from the punishment. His duty becomes much more important due to the significance of how he was freed -- the punishment of Christ, and his union with Christ. (Rom 6).

But continuation in sin is a given for the Christian. He will still accumulate sins. His work in light of his union with Christ is to cease from sins.
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 1:8-2:1
And he will succeed at this, because God is dwelling inside a Christian, and is working in him.
9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you. Rom 8:9-11

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. Pp 2:12-13
Christians thus cease from a particular sin due to the Spirit of God empowering them to stop it. The Spirit of God clearly does not stop every Christian from committing every sin the moment of his conversion. The Spirit of God seems to use sin and cessation from it to teach people by experience; the Spirit also teaches people doctrinally in preparation for these experiences. Therefore the Christian ceases from sins as he grows or changes to the point where the Spirit will empower him. People thus cease from sin given a time of growth and the Spirit of God's empowerment.
 
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archierieus

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In Jn. 15, Jesus says to abide in Him. We come to Jesus, we respond to His call, then we need to abide in Christ. Those who abide in Christ and bear the fruits of righteousness are the ones who will ultimately enter heaven. And Rev. 2 and 3 repeat the promise, 'He who overcomes.' Entry into heaven is promised to overcomers. And Jesus is able and faithful to help each of us.
 
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Hammster

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In Jn. 15, Jesus says to abide in Him. We come to Jesus, we respond to His call, then we need to abide in Christ. Those who abide in Christ and bear the fruits of righteousness are the ones who will ultimately enter heaven. And Rev. 2 and 3 repeat the promise, 'He who overcomes.' Entry into heaven is promised to overcomers. And Jesus is able and faithful to help each of us.


So then salvation isn't really until heaven. Up until then, you are just hoping that you are doing enough.
 
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chestertonrules

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Right. Amen. And it follows Romans 7. Notice the 'therefore'.

The therefore has nothing to do with those who don't persevere.

Once saved always saved is a dangerous heresy that is not scriptural.

We must endure with the help of God's grace.
 
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MamaZ

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The therefore has nothing to do with those who don't persevere.

Once saved always saved is a dangerous heresy that is not scriptural.

We must endure with the help of God's grace.
Only those whom are His will endure. For greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world. Men will not endure by their own righteousness but through the Power of Christ in them.
 
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Hammster

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The therefore has nothing to do with those who don't persevere.

Once saved always saved is a dangerous heresy that is not scriptural.

We must endure with the help of God's grace.

The 'therefore' has everything to do with it. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. This follows Paul's lamentation of not being able to always do what he is supposed to do as a believer. He tries, but fails.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.


All one thought.
 
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chestertonrules

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The 'therefore' has everything to do with it. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. This follows Paul's lamentation of not being able to always do what he is supposed to do as a believer. He tries, but fails.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.


All one thought.

How does one remain in Christ?

What if we don't remain in Christ?
 
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Hammster

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How does one remain in Christ?



What if we don't remain in Christ?



One remains in Christ by the power of Christ and by being sealed by the Holy Spirit.
 
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archierieus

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The 'therefore' has everything to do with it. There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. This follows Paul's lamentation of not being able to always do what he is supposed to do as a believer. He tries, but fails.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.


All one thought.
,
Paul explains why he failed in v. 25, "I myself," which actually reads, "I alone." Paul alone, without Christ, was in bondage to sin. Ch. 8 records the before-and-after difference, that is, the results of being 'in Christ' and 'with Christ.' 'The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death,' that is, set Paul free from the law of bondage to sin.
 
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archierieus

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One remains in Christ by the power of Christ and by being sealed by the Holy Spirit.

By the power of Christ, but it takes action on our part as well. Jesus said, 'Abide in Me, and I in you.' We need to stay with Jesus, to abide in Him, to stay in connection with the living Vine. Spiritual growth requires spiritual nurture, just as physical growth requires physical nurture. We need to feast on the Word of God, to pray, to share our faith, and to resist temptation by the power of Christ, to grow spiritually.
 
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MamaZ

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By the power of Christ, but it takes action on our part as well. Jesus said, 'Abide in Me, and I in you.' We need to stay with Jesus, to abide in Him, to stay in connection with the living Vine. Spiritual growth requires spiritual nurture, just as physical growth requires physical nurture. We need to feast on the Word of God, to pray, to share our faith, and to resist temptation by the power of Christ, to grow spiritually.
We always are in connection with the true vine for He dwells right inside of His believers.. He never leaves nor forsakes them.. Even when men are faithless He is faithful. Our salvation is not based on merit of our workings..
 
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archierieus

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We always are in connection with the true vine for He dwells right inside of His believers.. He never leaves nor forsakes them.. Even when men are faithless He is faithful. Our salvation is not based on merit of our workings..

Actually, Jesus warns in that same chapter that branches which are unfruitful will be cut off and cast into the fire. And He calls us to keep His commandments, vv. 15, 16, saying those who keep His commandments are the ones He and His Father will dwell with. And He adds a warning about not keeping His commandments.
 
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MamaZ

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Actually, Jesus warns in that same chapter that branches which are unfruitful will be cut off and cast into the fire. And He calls us to keep His commandments, vv. 15, 16, saying those who keep His commandments are the ones He and His Father will dwell with. And He adds a warning about not keeping His commandments.
You believe in your works to save you then?
 
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MamaZ

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Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
Eph 5:26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
Eph 5:27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
 
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