Saul of Tarsus

[DragonFox91]

Someone will have to answer, but were the letters to the churches in Revelation meant to be the churches in the then-current time? Revelation is futuristic & has many interpretations so I was never clear on that. The churches might be allegories for End Times for example, not necessarily the real then-present day. That's how I always kind of understood the letters. I'm not sure, the letters always felt off to me from the rest of the book. Who knows. I know a lot of people just say 'the only thing we know for sure about Revelation is someday Jesus will rule forever & ever & judgement will come.'

 

[miamited]

Hi @DragonFox91

Someone will have to answer, but were the letters to the churches in Revelation meant to be the churches in the then-current time? Revelation is futuristic & has many interpretations so I was never clear on that. The churches might be allegories for End Times for example, not necessarily the real then-present day. Who knows.

My personal understanding is that the writings found in the Revelation of Jesus, covers the entire revelation of Jesus. Let me also add that the opening of the account seems to make pretty clear to us that there is some sort of separation between God and Jesus and what they each know. I've long been one that has a rather hard time with the Jesus is God understanding of the Scriptures, but that will be for another discussion.

It begins, after the seven letters, with John seeing heaven at the time that Jesus died. John writes that all of heaven and earth was searched, for one who was righteous enough to open the seals of the scroll of God's judgment upon the earth. At last the cry goes out, "Behold! The lion of the tribe of Judah, looking as a Lamb who had been slain."

Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, “Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.” Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.

This was the appearance of Jesus when he was crucified. At one point the account even backtracks to capture the birth of Jesus.

The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

This is obviously an account of Jesus' birth and then his ascension to the right hand side of the Father.

So, I'm not one to hold to the idea that all of the Revelation account is future to us. We find that John tells us that this written account found in the Revelation is not necessarily an orderly, by chronology, account. For example in Rev. 1:10 we read: On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,... Then in Rev. 4:2 we read: At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. So here, the Scriptures seem to be telling us that the letters to the churches were written from the account of one vision. Then John is led 'in the Spirit' into heaven where we see another vision.

John also prefaces much of his account with the words 'after this'. This would seem to indicate a break point in some cases. That he sees a vision, then that vision closes and another comes into his mind. I also think it worth keeping in mind that when the angel first called him up to heaven to begin his journey into the visions that he was told that he was told, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” To John, after this, would have been anything happening on the earth after about 100 A.D. I say this, because as I read through the opening of the seals, I find that there is a good possibility that some of them may well have already been opened. In other words, esp. the first 5 seals, they seem to have already been opened and the events accounted in them are currently happening upon the earth.

So, we are told that John sees Jesus looking like a Lamb who had been slain. He is then declared righteous to open the seals of the scroll and the scroll is given him from the hand of the Father. This account, for me, seems to have already happened in the heavenly realm.

The first seal releases a horseman on a white horse. He wears a crown and carries a sword and is sent out to conquer. I believe that is Jesus and the gospel. Some say that it is the future anti-christ, but I'm not convinced of that. Jesus came to the earth and told his disciples that he would build his church and then gave his disciples the task of going about the earth and doing that. For me, that seems to be the rider of the white horse and what he conquers are the hearts of men with his gospel of salvation through the Scriptures...the sword.

Then Jesus opens the second seal and another horseman is released. He is on a fiery red horse and is given authority to take peace from the earth. That seems to be clearly going on, and has been, for at least the better part of the last 2,000 years. The point is made that he was given a large sword, which would indicate that he was going to effect more people than the first horseman. This is also a known truth of the world today that more people are bent on hate and killing than on the acceptance of Jesus' gospel of salvation.

Then we see a third horseman on a black horse. This horseman seems to be going about the world giving value to many of the things that are needed for daily life. That human life upon the earth is going to be largely dependent on the value of daily needs and our ability to afford them will be the heart of our struggles in this life.

Finally, we have the last horseman and he brings death and destruction and plagues that will kill one fourth of the earth's people. Certainly since the day that Jesus ascended into heaven many, many, many people have died of these listed causes, i.e. sword (murder and war), famine and plague and wild beasts. Is it a fourth, I really don't know, but it's certainly been a lot. According to the most recent count, just in the last two years 6 million people have died across the globe from the Covid plague. In the U.S. there were about 25,000 murders in 2019. Globally, the number is estimated to be somewhere around 400,000. According to un.org, it is estimated that 25,000 people die every day!!! from hunger and famine. That's over 9 million people per year...every year!...just from famine and hunger. That horseman seems to be alive and doing well.

Finally we come to the 5th seal. We see the righteous ones of God under the altar, but this obviously is not in the last days, because they cry out, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

So, these saints of God are told to 'wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been. So, it's highly possible that this seal has also already been opened from where we stand today, future to John's account.

Now we come to the sixth seal and this one is a little harder to fit into anything that has been or is going on today, although there are some events that could line up. It does end with the proclamation that the great day of the wrath of God and the Lamb is coming upon them and so it could well still be future. But certainly after this seal, we come to what seems to obviously be a break in the opening of the scrolls. This break, on the earth, could be centuries.

So, there is certainly an understanding of the Revelation of Jesus that it is an accounting of events that unfold upon the earth from shortly after the time that Jesus ascended into heaven and continuing to the last days and then God's judgment upon the inhabitants of the earth after Jesus takes those who are his out of harms way of God's wrath.

Sorry to be so long, but I believe it is worth considering when we read the Revelation that a lot of what is accounted within the words of John's writing may well have already taken place.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again @DragonFox91

As to your question specifically about the letters, I believe that they were written to the then current fellowships that existed in John's day. This would explain why all of the letters only address fellowships of that day. For example, there is no letter to the 'church in New York' or the 'church in Great Britain'. If we understand the time of John's vision, it would have been somewhere near the end of the first century. By then all of fellowships mentioned had already been in place and it is a testimony to the normal and regular wickedness and faithlessness of men, that within just a few decades, some of the fellowships were going off the rails, so to speak.

I believe that through these letters, Jesus is trying to draw them back to what they are supposed to be. Rather like the first semester grading in our schools. It is meant to show early deficiencies that should be corrected if one wants to graduate successfully.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi agains @DragonFox91

I believe that through these letters, Jesus is trying to draw them back to what they are supposed to be. Rather like the first semester grading in our schools. It is meant to show early deficiencies that should be corrected if one wants to graduate successfully.

Just to add to that thinking, yes, the letters also have application for today's believers that we need to be careful that our service and worship is in keeping with what God has asked of us. That we don't, anymore than they seemed to have, allow our worship to become something wicked in the sight of Jesus and our eternal Father.

I've written before that man's heart is wicked and he is prone to quickly turning away from the things of God. I believe this is exampled for us in the garden. It doesn't seem to be very long before Eve falls to the temptation of Satan. Then we come to the account of the flood, just some 1500 years after the creation and by that time, according to God's word, all of mankind had turned to wickedness. Then we find God bringing Israel out of Egypt and within just a month or two they are building a golden calf to be their god. Then God established Israel and it is just a constant battle of wills to keep Israel on track and they are very, very often condemned by God for their sin and faithlessness. Then Jesus comes and faith begins strong with the first disciples, but today in just 2,000 years, man has, as a whole, pretty much again turned their backs on God.

So, I fully believe that while the letters were written for the specific fellowships that are mentioned and were existing in the day in which the letters were written, that they also carry a warning to us to examine our ways of worship and service to God.

God bless,
Ted

 

[timf]

The dating of Revelation is kind of interesting. The two main views are a late date (about 90AD) and an early date (before 70 AD).

Peterists often take an early date because they say that everything that happened in Revelation was associated with the destruction of the temple.

Dispensationalists often take a late date because they take it to be a prophecy for Israel and the church subsequent to the destruction of the temple.

I take an early view because of the word "shortly". I see a letter written to the churches warning them about what was to happen if Israel received the offered kingdom at that time. They did not know that the failure Of Israel to receive the kingdom then would result in an interruption of the offer for 2000 years.