Satan's Sin

[holdon]

How do you reconcile that with the self-evident fact that nothing can or does exist unless God has called it into being

I don't call that a "self-evident" fact at all. How so?

and how does anything called into being exist except by God's permission?

Well, if it was called by Him into being, that would presuppose His permission would it not?

The one thing that cannot be, is something that exists of itself apart from God.

How so? What do you mean?

God is the only self-existent Being, whose existence is within Himself. All that is, is so by His doing, sustenance, and permission.

Which is it in the case of Evil? All three?

It is not about whether any created being can corrupt itself, because that is self-evidently true. But, can that happen apart from and in spite of God's permission?

Sure. Was Adam permitted to eat of the tree? No, he was forbiddne to do that.

If not, you wind up with Evil, whether a being or a force, equally as powerful as God, and the source of its own existence. Christian Theology will not allow for such a state of affairs.

No, if you make God the author of evil then God is eternally co-existent with, if you will, a good side and an evil side. That dualism is not Christian but of the pagan type.

We may not understand (and we don't really) how God can allow Evil to exist in His Creation, but we can see from the Word that He uses it and channels it to His own Purpose, and to acheive His own ends. Therefore, we can deduce that Evil is subject to God's direction, control and is a tool in His hand to bring about that which He ultimately has purposed.

Lot of deduction here.... Evil, let's be precise, moral evil, does not come from God. NEVER.

 

[nobdysfool]

I don't call that a "self-evident" fact at all. How so?

It does presuppsoe that you believe in God as a transcendant Being, an all-powerful, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient Being. Oh wait, you did say earlier that you didn't believe that God was all-powerful, didn't you? Or did I misunderstand you?

Well, if it was called by Him into being, that would presuppose His permission would it not?

Yes, because God is not acted on by any outside force or influence to create something He didn't want to create.

How so? What do you mean?

There is no self-existent Being but God. He is the ONLY one. So all that exists is here by His doing, either directly as in the case of creation, or indirectly by means of secondary actions and reactions as a result of His creation.

Which is it in the case of Evil? All three?

Explain. Do you believe Evil exists without God's knoweldge or permission? That it just came into being by itself?

Sure. Was Adam permitted to eat of the tree? No, he was forbidden to do that.

But he was not prevented from eating of it. In other words he possessed the capability to eat from it, without regard to God's forbidding him to eat of it. Capability does not imply moral ability. If God had truly not wanted Adam to be tempted to eat of that tree, God would not have placed it in the midst of the Garden, and would not have called attention to its existence, would He? You get into real trouble when you try to assess God's intent and purpose at this point, if you only look at it in human terms.

No, if you make God the author of evil then God is eternally co-existent with, if you will, a good side and an evil side. That dualism is not Christian but of the pagan type.

Your assumption here is faulty because you assume that if He created Evil it is therefore equally as powerful as He is, which is impossible for a created thing. The concept of yin and yang is not Christian. The concept of Abraxas is not Christian. What you accuse us of is not accurate, nor is it what we believe.

Lot of deduction here.... Evil, let's be precise, moral evil, does not come from God. NEVER.

It is very obvious that you misunderstand what we are saying, and are reacting at an emotional level to what you think we're saying.

 

[holdon]

It does presuppsoe that you believe in God as a transcendant Being, an all-powerful, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient Being. Oh wait, you did say earlier that you didn't believe that God was all-powerful, didn't you? Or did I misunderstand you?

How would I know what you understand? Can God do everything? No. He cannot lie, cannot deny Himself, cannot commit moral evil, etc. etc. Do you agree?

There is no self-existent Being but God. He is the ONLY one. So all that exists is here by His doing, either directly as in the case of creation, or indirectly by means of secondary actions and reactions as a result of His creation.

So far so good.

Explain. Do you believe Evil exists without God's knoweldge or permission? That it just came into being by itself?

Neither. It came just into being by itself. (of by himself: Satan).

But he was not prevented from eating of it. In other words he possessed the capability to eat from it, without regard to God's forbidding him to eat of it.

That's correct.

Capability does not imply moral ability. If God had truly not wanted Adam to be tempted to eat of that tree, God would not have placed it in the midst of the Garden, and would not have called attention to its existence, would He?

Wow. I'm surprised you even dare to put a phrase like that down. You are incriminating God in the whole affair. Not so strange though: that's what the first people did too. But it's wrong. And your reasoning goes exactly against James 1:13!!!

You get into real trouble when you try to assess God's intent and purpose at this point, if you only look at it in human terms.

Well, I think it is you who gets into trouble, ascribing bad things to God.

Your assumption here is faulty because you assume that if He created Evil it is therefore equally as powerful as He is, which is impossible for a created thing. The concept of yin and yang is not Christian. The concept of Abraxas is not Christian. What you accuse us of is not accurate, nor is it what we believe.

He did not create Evil. If He did, He is truly bad.

It is very obvious that you misunderstand what we are saying, and are reacting at an emotional level to what you think we're saying.

Emotion is good. Especially when it is founded on morality.....

 

[moonbeam]

It came just into being by itself. (of by himself: Satan).

The scripture begins "In the begining God ".......What ever has being..had its being...in God.

 

[holdon]

The scripture begins "In the begining God ".......What ever has being..had its being...in God.

??? Care to explain. I can't fill in the blanks (periods).

 

[IronFire]

The scripture begins "In the begining God ".......What ever has being..had its being...in God.

There is a difference between self-being (completely self-sustaining in being) and self-causing (having the ability to cause (a decision)).

The scripture you quoted says, "What ever has being..had its being..in God," it doesn't say, "What ever has been caused..has been caused..by God."

A radical difference...

 

[IronFire]

But he was not prevented from eating of it. In other words he possessed the capability to eat from it, without regard to God's forbidding him to eat of it. Capability does not imply moral ability. If God had truly not wanted Adam to be tempted to eat of that tree, God would not have placed it in the midst of the Garden, and would not have called attention to its existence, would He? You get into real trouble when you try to assess God's intent and purpose at this point, if you only look at it in human terms.

We always have to moral ability to do right.

Look at 1 Corinthians 10:13

"No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it."

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[moonbeam]

??? Care to explain. I can't fill in the blanks (periods).

There is nothing to fill in, and even if there was (gap theory) something to fill in, it wouldn't make any difference to the outcome of the equation at either end. God created everything....He gave everything else being (existence)....everything else, in what ever terms, quantities, qualities you might want to use....can trace its source back to God....there isn't anything else... Except HIM and his purposes (which are his bussiness)

 

[nobdysfool]

We always have to moral ability to do right.

Look at 1 Corinthians 10:13

"No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it."

Seems pretty clear to me.

Sorry, that scripture was written to and specifically about Believers. Unregenerate men do not have the moral ability to do right, because they are corrupted, dead in sins, and alienated from the life of God.

 

[IronFire]

Sorry, that scripture was written to and specifically about Believers. Unregenerate men do not have the moral ability to do right, because they are corrupted, dead in sins, and alienated from the life of God.

Right, and wasn't Adam a believer? Also, he didn't have a sin nature yet, so there was nothing to regenerate...

 

[IronFire]

There is nothing to fill in, and even if there was (gap theory) something to fill in, it wouldn't make any difference to the outcome of the equation at either end. God created everything....He gave everything else being (existence)....everything else, in what ever terms, quantities, qualities you might want to use....can trace its source back to God....there isn't anything else... Except HIM and his purposes (which are his bussiness)

moonbeam, would you say there exist beings besides God? As in you and I exist, but we are not God?

Also, you provide no argument against self-caused decisions.
If God gives me the ability to cause decisions, and I use that ability, do my self-caused choices come from God? They are enabled by God, but do they originate from God?

 

[moonbeam]

If God gives me the ability to cause decisions, and I use that ability, do my self-caused choices come from God? They are enabled by God, but do they originate from God?

Tell me in what way they don't originate in God ?

 

[nobdysfool]

Right, and wasn't Adam a believer? Also, he didn't have a sin nature yet, so there was nothing to regenerate...

Ah,l but you're jumping back and forth. Adam had the ability before he sinned to choose moral good. He didn't in the case of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. He lost that ability in the Fall, and with Adam, we all did. Those who have believed savingly on the Lord Jesus Christ have had that ability restored.

The scripture in 1 Cor. 10 is written to Believers, about the care of God toward them that believe. It has no application to mankind in general. Unregenerate man has no desire or inclination to choose moral good. He is dead in his sins. Given a choice, he will choose that which satisfies and glorifies himself, rather than God. If he chooses what appears outwardly to be a moral choice, it still is done from impure motives based on self-interest. As such they do not qualify as morally good choices in the eyes of God. One can argue that unregenerate man has the capacity to choose moral good, but capacity does not equal ability.

 

[nobdysfool]

moonbeam, would you say there exist beings besides God? As in you and I exist, but we are not God?

Also, you provide no argument against self-caused decisions.
If God gives me the ability to cause decisions, and I use that ability, do my self-caused choices come from God? They are enabled by God, but do they originate from God?

First, God is the only Being whose existence is within Himself, that is His source of Being is within Himself. That differentiates Him from all others. Our source of being is outside of ourselves, i.e. in God. We owe our existence to Him.

There is no such thing as a self-caused decision, if by that you mean a decision with no prior cause. The decisions that you make are because of the fact that you exist. The source of your existence is God, so it can be argued that the very decisions and choices you make exist because God caused you to be in existence.

Technically, you weren't created, but begotten, that is, a product of reproduction after its own kind, tracing all the way back to Adam. Therefore, it can be said that every decision you make is because God created Adam, and Adam's offspring includes you. Nothing that exists or happens does so without being traceable ultimately back to God.

That however does not mean that you are not responsible and accountable for your decisions, nor does it make God culpable for the evil choices and natures of men and angels.

This is where the argument gets emotional, and irrational.

 

[IronFire]

First, God is the only Being whose existence is within Himself, that is His source of Being is within Himself. That differentiates Him from all others. Our source of being is outside of ourselves, i.e. in God. We owe our existence to Him.

I agree.

There is no such thing as a self-caused decision, if by that you mean a decision with no prior cause.

Would God's decisions qualify as self-caused decisions?

The decisions that you make are because of the fact that you exist. The source of your existence is God, so it can be argued that the very decisions and choices you make exist because God caused you to be in existence.

I'm not following the logic train...could you explain how "it can be argued"?

Isn't it possible for God to create beings with the ability to cause decisions on their own, as He does?

Technically, you weren't created, but begotten, that is, a product of reproduction after its own kind, tracing all the way back to Adam. Therefore, it can be said that every decision you make is because God created Adam, and Adam's offspring includes you. Nothing that exists or happens does so without being traceable ultimately back to God.

Everything traces back to God in a sense (everything's in a sense of course )

Our decisions are traced back to us and the buck stops there, there's no previous cause of our decisions other than ourselves. Our ability to cause decisions is given to us by God, so in a sense everthing traces back to God. That does not mean everything is caused by God.

That however does not mean that you are not responsible and accountable for your decisions, nor does it make God culpable for the evil choices and natures of men and angels.

I thought you just said God was ultimately responsible for everything?

This is where the argument gets emotional, and irrational.

There's no reason why it has too.

 

[IronFire]

Ah,l but you're jumping back and forth. Adam had the ability before he sinned to choose moral good. He didn't in the case of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. He lost that ability in the Fall, and with Adam, we all did. Those who have believed savingly on the Lord Jesus Christ have had that ability restored.

Can you explain why he didn't in the case of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

The scripture in 1 Cor. 10 is written to Believers, about the care of God toward them that believe. It has no application to mankind in general. Unregenerate man has no desire or inclination to choose moral good. He is dead in his sins. Given a choice, he will choose that which satisfies and glorifies himself, rather than God. If he chooses what appears outwardly to be a moral choice, it still is done from impure motives based on self-interest.

Hold on, I gotta ask, are you saying it's wrong to do things in our own self-interest?

As such they do not qualify as morally good choices in the eyes of God. One can argue that unregenerate man has the capacity to choose moral good, but capacity does not equal ability.

I don't see the need to distinguish between capacity and ability. I think they are they are the same.
If you have the capacity but not the ability, then you really don't have the capacity either.


Did Adam have a sin nature before he sinned?

Adam had the ability and capacity to choose either right or wrong. If he did not, God would be cruel to to demand that he do something he could not do. God would be directly and purposely condemning him by giving the commandment. I don't see how this can be reconciled with the notion of a Loving God.

 

[nobdysfool]

Can you explain why he didn't in the case of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?

Can you? At this point, the reason is moot. It happened and we are living with the consequences.

Hold on, I gotta ask, are you saying it's wrong to do things in our own self-interest?

That depends. What kind of self-interest are you referring to?

I don't see the need to distinguish between capacity and ability. I think they are they are the same.
If you have the capacity but not the ability, then you really don't have the capacity either.

There is a distinction. You have the capacity to have untold wealth and riches, but that doesn't mean you have the ability to have them, does it? Capacity and ability are two different, although admittedly related things. Capacity refers to what can happen, ability to what does happen.

Did Adam have a sin nature before he sinned?

No. but no human born since (except for Christ) Adam sinned is without a sinful nature, and all are in fact born sinners.

Adam had the ability and capacity to choose either right or wrong. If he did not, God would be cruel to to demand that he do something he could not do. God would be directly and purposely condemning him by giving the commandment. I don't see how this can be reconciled with the notion of a Loving God.

Adam had the ability and capacity to choose to obey or disobey. We know he chose to disobey. What makes you think that his progeny, who are already corrupted and do not even enjoy the same state of innocence he did, will choose what Adam did not? To say that unregenerate man can choose that which Adam did not is fantasy.

No one argues that Adam did not have the clear ability to chose of his own volition to obey God. He had a real chocie, and he chose very, very poorly. But God knew Adam would do so, and Adam's decision was already factored into God's Eternal Plan. God was not blind-sided or taken by surprise. God's Eternal Purpose included the Fall of Man, and the sacrifice of Christ to redeem fallen men, from the very beginning.

 

[IronFire]

Can you? At this point, the reason is moot. It happened and we are living with the consequences.

Er, I would say he DID have the ability to choose right or wrong.

That depends. What kind of self-interest are you referring to?

What are the options? I only know of one kind of self-interest.

There is a distinction. You have the capacity to have untold wealth and riches, but that doesn't mean you have the ability to have them, does it? Capacity and ability are two different, although admittedly related things. Capacity refers to what can happen, ability to what does happen.

??? Ability refers to what does happen? I've never heard that before, and it's certaintly not the common understanding of the word.


From dictionary.com:

Ability
The quality of being able to do something, especially the physical, mental, financial, or legal power to accomplish something.
Capacity
Innate potential for growth, development, or accomplishment; faculty. See Synonyms at ability.

No one argues that Adam did not have the clear ability to chose of his own volition to obey God. He had a real chocie, and he chose very, very poorly. But God knew Adam would do so, and Adam's decision was already factored into God's Eternal Plan. God was not blind-sided or taken by surprise. God's Eternal Purpose included the Fall of Man, and the sacrifice of Christ to redeem fallen men, from the very beginning.

I looks to me like you are arguing that Adam did not have the ability to obey God. (Using your previous definition of ability...)
God's knowledge of an event does not mean He caused it, does it?

The crucial questions are:

Did God cause Satan (or Adam) to sin?
Did God intend for Satan (or Adam) to sin?

 

[holdon]

There is nothing to fill in, and even if there was (gap theory) something to fill in, it wouldn't make any difference to the outcome of the equation at either end. God created everything....He gave everything else being (existence)....everything else, in what ever terms, quantities, qualities you might want to use....can trace its source back to God....there isn't anything else... Except HIM and his purposes (which are his bussiness)

So, are you saying that when you sin, God makes you sin? If sin exists, is it because God causes it to exist?

 

[holdon]

Ah,l but you're jumping back and forth. Adam had the ability before he sinned to choose moral good. He didn't in the case of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. He lost that ability in the Fall, and with Adam, we all did. Those who have believed savingly on the Lord Jesus Christ have had that ability restored.

What exactly do you mean here? Was Adam created with the bad nature and had he also the regenerate nature? Like us? If not what are we restored to?