Satan's Sin

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

This seems backwards. It is not that one sins because one is a sinner. Rather, one is a sinner because one sins.

So, you hold the position that we are all born morally neutral?

 

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Are you insinuating that God planted the germ (yeast) of evil in Satan?

Where did God get that germ from?

Well, it didn't come from Nabisco baking products.

 

[moonbeam]

Of course you need to scream.

It was a loud whisper.

But God cannot make anything bad. Or He needs to have evil in Himself.

What is "evil"...what kind of stuff is it....is it some kind of "stuff" ?.......or is it the "absence" of something else....something like "order"

So, how is your god, combining good and evil in himself?

If you think of God as a computer program....a data file (so to speak).....a perfect sequence of numbers in their correct order.....IF ?.....if a copy was made/created of that data....with some data removed (for a purpose)....than the resultant program/creation will not produce "order".....but "disorder".....sin....missing the mark...corruption...death...rebellion...against order (God is a God of order)

 

[moonbeam]

So Adam originally sinned because he was a sinner?

Only a sinner can sin ?...... Can God sin ? ..... Why not ?

God created him a sinner?

God created him "perfect".....for His Purposes.

One must wonder why God described His creation as 'good'.

One must ...and should wonder .... what "exactly" God meant when He said "good".......because things did not turn out "good".....Did they ????

Further, one must wonder why we discuss the Fall.

Who fell (revealed themselves) first Adam ... or Satan ?

If man was made sinful, what is the point of discussing the first sin? What effect does it have on us?

Ask those in Hell.....better still ...ask those in Heaven.

I assume you have Scriptural support for the 'election' of angels.

You presume correctly...the NT scripture mentions "the elect angels"

 

[holdon]

It was a loud whisper.
What is "evil"...what kind of stuff is it....is it some kind of "stuff" ?.......or is it the "absence" of something else....something like "order"
If you think of God as a computer program....a data file (so to speak).....a perfect sequence of numbers in their correct order.....IF ?.....if a copy was made/created of that data....with some data removed (for a purpose)....than the resultant program/creation will not produce "order".....but "disorder".....sin....missing the mark...corruption...death...rebellion...against order (God is a God of order)

Ah, the computer program that failed to replicate itself properly. Are you saying God failed then?

But I don't agree with the analogy. God created Satan. It was not replication. God cannot replicate Himself. He wouldn't be God.
God creates and He does it well: no flaws.

 

[moonbeam]

Ah, the computer program that failed to replicate itself properly. Are you saying God failed then?

On the contrary....He got exactly what He designed, it was "perfect"...for His purposes....The "element" the "principle" of disorder was sown like a seed ...as planed....with results ...as planed and purposed.

But I don't agree with the analogy. God created Satan. It was not replication.

I never said it was....I said it was a creation...created with the "principle" of disorder present...in that there was a lack of order...that lack of order ...that principle of disharmony was a designed flaw.

God creates and He does it well: no flaws.

I agree...Satans fall as well as Adams was not a design flaw....it was a designed result.

 

[holdon]

The "element" the "principle" of disorder was sown like a seed that lack of order ...that principle of disharmony was a designed flaw.
I agree...Satans fall as well as Adams was not a design flaw....it was a designed result.

The "element" the "principle" of disorder was sown like a seed that lack of order ...that principle of disharmony was a designed flaw.

So, God is a God or disorder after all. The dualistic god. The fatalistic god. Pantheism. Pandemonium.

 

[moonbeam]

So, God is a God or disorder after all.

No...scripture says God is a God of order.....Just because there is obvious disorder in the creation..doesn't change the fact that God is a God of order...you see...the disorder in the creation....IS in ORDER.....it occured by His order (decree)

The dualistic god. The fatalistic god. Pantheism. Pandemonium.

None of the above.....God is a God of "order"....disorder is contained within the framework of "order"...you could say that it is a subset of "order"... in that there is a quantitative and qualitative "deficiency"..... of "order".

 

[holdon]

God is a God of "order"....disorder is contained within the framework of "order".

???? You're out of order.

 

[moonbeam]

???? You're out of order.

Scripture tells us that God is a God of "order" ....... "order" has authoity .... power .... over "disorder".......You can see this in the example of Jesus stilling the raging storm...... HIS "order" ....when He chose to exercise it..............."brought" order....... to disorder.
I hope you will be able to get some insight into what I mean (from the above) when I speak of disorder, itself, being contained within the framework of order......in a sense you could say that "disorder" possesses no inherent autonomy.......on account that it can, at any time be "swallowed up" and disolved....by an "injection" of order.

 

[holdon]

Scripture tells us that God is a God of "order" ....... "order" has authoity .... power .... over "disorder".......You can see this in the example of Jesus stilling the raging storm...... HIS "order" ....when He chose to exercise it..............."brought" order....... to disorder.
I hope you will be able to get some insight into what I mean (from the above) when I speak of disorder, itself, being contained within the framework of order......in a sense you could say that "disorder" possesses no inherent autonomy.......on account that it can, at any time be "swallowed up" and disolved....by an "injection" of order.

Your god is the author of sin and evil. That's what you're saying. It's a pagan idea.

Just to be clear: that is not the God of the Bible.

 

[moonbeam]

Your god is the author of sin and evil. That's what you're saying. It's a pagan idea.

Just to be clear: that is not the God of the Bible.

God.....IS.....the "author"....of everything......Do you know of another ?

 

[DeaconDean]

Satan's fall is very interesting when examining the nature and extent of "free-will".

No one tempted Satan to sin. He didn't have a sinful nature.

So how could he concieve of the notion of sin/wrong/disobedience?

What caused Satan to sin?

Come on friends, lets examine scripture.

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." -Isa. 14:12-15

Also:

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground," -Eze. 28:13-17

I know it is coming, somebody will say that these scriptures don't apply to Satan, particularly the Ezekiel passages. But I disagree, we studied these in seminary and I believe that they do apply. So looking at it from these sriptures we find:

1. Lucifer was the most gloriously adorned angel in all of heaven. He had precious jewels on him, and he also had pipes. i.e. he also was the heavenly choir director
2. He was the "anointed cherub, the one that guarded the throne of God.
3. He was, contrary to popular belief, created, and not only so, but was created "perfect in thy ways."
4. Then sin entered his heart.
5. Vanity because of the way in which he was created- "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned:Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness:" -Eze. 28:16-17
6. Pride- because he was the only angel in heaven to ever hold two positions, that of protector of the throne, and the heavenly choir director.
7. Greed- "I will be like the most High." -Isa. 14:14 Compounded with: "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:" -Isa. 14:13

Vanity because he was the most gloriously adorned angel in heaven. Pride because of the way he was adorned and the position he held in heaven. Greed because he simply wasn't happy to the fourth inline in heaven, no, he wanted to be greater than the creator. And I disagree that God is the author of sin for two reasons:

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all." -1 Jn. 1:5

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:" -Jas. 1:13

Funny how these things, vanity, pride, and greed that were found in Satan, can be found in us because of his fall and the subsequent fall of Adam. But that's just my two cents worth.

God Bless.

 

[moonbeam]

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." -Isa. 14:12-15

HOW ???.......art thou fallen ?
HOW ???.......art thou cut down ?

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground," -Eze. 28:13-17

PERFECT ...... Does "perfect" mean perfect ?....as in complete and total "perfection"....as in complete and total flawlessness...not only now, but for ever?..........clearly it can not mean "that" in this instance.......Which means...it must mean something different ?
TILL INIQUITY WAS FOUND .... How can iniquity (lawlessness) be found in one who is created "perfect" ?..... "Till"....."till" iniquity was found......"found" ?.......was somebody looking "for" iniquity ?.......was somebody "waiting" for iniquity....to be found ?......Who would that someone be ?

"This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

God is a God of "order" (light).....and in Him (personally)....is no "disorder" (darkness) at all ....... The same can not be said of any of the creatures He has made.

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"

God can not be tempted (enticed) with evil (disorder)....because He is "order" (light) PERSONIFIED....and HE....HIMSELF.....PERSONALLY....tempts (entices to disorder) no man to sin.....there are others who do that....not to mention ourselves.

 

[holdon]

HOW ???.......art thou fallen ?
HOW ???.......art thou cut down ?
PERFECT ...... Does "perfect" mean perfect ?....as in complete and total "perfection"....as in complete and total flawlessness...not only now, but for ever?..........clearly it can not mean "that" in this instance.......Which means...it must mean something different ?
TILL INIQUITY WAS FOUND .... How can iniquity (lawlessness) be found in one who is created "perfect" ?..... "Till"....."till" iniquity was found......"found" ?.......was somebody looking "for" iniquity ?.......was somebody "waiting" for iniquity....to be found ?......Who would that someone be ?
God is a God of "order" (light).....and in Him (personally)....is no "disorder" (darkness) at all ....... The same can not be said of any of the creatures He has made.
God can not be tempted (enticed) with evil (disorder)....because He is "order" (light) PERSONIFIED....and HE....HIMSELF.....PERSONALLY....tempts (entices to disorder) no man to sin.....there are others who do that....not to mention ourselves.

But accordingly to you god can shake a few bad seeds out of his sleeve and plant them in the good Satan, so as to make him evil????

 

[_CJ_]

And tell me now how not to symphatize with the satan? The guy was to be bad and cast into the burning hell. Even if he had all in the beginning. What is perfect can't go flawed one day. He was just meant to suffer. Why?

No answer to that because there's no answer to how a perfect God(universe, all, everything) could produce flaws. Skipping this point will get you nowhere. Perfect God and imperfection in His creation. It is impossible.

 

[moonbeam]

But accordingly to you god can shake a few bad seeds out of his sleeve and plant them in the good Satan, so as to make him evil????

Jesus said "there is only one who is good"......I don't think He was talking about Satan....do you ?

 

[holdon]

Jesus said "there is only one who is good"......I don't think He was talking about Satan....do you ?

Well, didn't you say that Satan was good and then god put some bad seed in him? Maybe I'm wrong...

It doesn't matter anyway. You have god the author of evil. I've never heard of greater blasphemy.

 

[nobdysfool]

Well, didn't you say that Satan was good and then god put some bad seed in him? Maybe I'm wrong...

It doesn't matter anyway. You have god the author of evil. I've never heard of greater blasphemy.

How do you reconcile that with the self-evident fact that nothing can or does exist unless God has called it into being, and how does anything called into being exist except by God's permission? The one thing that cannot be, is something that exists of itself apart from God. God is the only self-existent Being, whose existence is within Himself. All that is, is so by His doing, sustenance, and permission. It is not about whether any created being can corrupt itself, because that is self-evidently true. But, can that happen apart from and in spite of God's permission? If not, you wind up with Evil, whether a being or a force, equally as powerful as God, and the source of its own existence. Christian Theology will not allow for such a state of affairs.

We may not understand (and we don't really) how God can allow Evil to exist in His Creation, but we can see from the Word that He uses it and channels it to His own Purpose, and to acheive His own ends. Therefore, we can deduce that Evil is subject to God's direction, control and is a tool in His hand to bring about that which He ultimately has purposed.

 

[moonbeam]

How do you reconcile that with the self-evident fact that nothing can or does exist unless God has called it into being, and how does anything called into being exist except by God's permission? The one thing that cannot be, is something that exists of itself apart from God. God is the only self-existent Being, whose existence is within Himself. All that is, is so by His doing, sustenance, and permission. It is not about whether any created being can corrupt itself, because that is self-evidently true. But, can that happen apart from and in spite of God's permission? If not, you wind up with Evil, whether a being or a force, equally as powerful as God, and the source of its own existence. Christian Theology will not allow for such a state of affairs.

We may not understand (and we don't really) how God can allow Evil to exist in His Creation, but we can see from the Word that He uses it and channels it to His own Purpose, and to acheive His own ends. Therefore, we can deduce that Evil is subject to God's direction, control and is a tool in His hand to bring about that which He ultimately has purposed.

WELL SAID.....WELL SAID INDEED.