Satan's offer:

[nhzname]

I've obviously come into this discussion late, but just to toss in my 2 cents worth ...

I have always believed that when Satan tempted Jesus with rule over all the kingdoms of the world, he was tempting Jesus 'the man' just as he would tempt you or me with whatever he thinks will turn us from God. I believe that Satan was able to make this offer because until Christ's sacrifice on the cross, Satan still had dominion on earth. That's why Christ came, to break that dominion.

Look at it this way ... the kingdoms of the world are all manmade, and until we are free in Christ and put Him on the throne of our lives, Satan rules over us (man) through disobedience and rejection of Christ. So in Satan offering Christ rule over the kingdoms of the world, he was simply offering rule over sinful man, and all the kingdoms he creates on earth. Big temptation for your typical human ... Imagine all that power! But Jesus came to squash that power and set us free from the rule of sin and death - Satan's rule over us.

I think the Lord Himself explains this exact thing in John 12:27-32 when He predicted His death ~ “Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

In Matthew 28:18-20, after His resurrection ... 'Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” In Luke 10:19, He gives all who believe in Him this authority - "I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you."

Yes, Satan is still running around playing the game, but he already knows his time is running out. Christ has conquered him and free us from his rule through belief in Him, but until we commit to Christ, Satan still has the power to take us down with him.

Hmmm, seems more like 2 bucks worth, eh?!

 

[]RiSeN[]

Amen!

 

[Fat]

nhzname

But Luke 10:19, I believe is before the resurrection, so Christ had the authority all a long from the time he watched Satan fall from heaven ? (Luke 10:18)

Fat

 

[MbiaJc]

]Fa||eN[']

Did satan have power over what he was offering, the kingdoms of the world, mans world?



No! The question was did satin have the power to give Jesus the kingdoms of this world that he offered Him.

If you had read all my posts you would have known it was not the kingdoms of men. For God says He rules over the kingdoms of men and He sets up kings and He takes them down.

 

[MbiaJc]

nhzname

I've obviously come into this discussion late, but just to toss in my 2 cents worth ...

I have always believed that when Satan tempted Jesus with rule over all the kingdoms of the world, he was tempting Jesus 'the man' just as he would tempt you or me with whatever he thinks will turn us from God. I believe that Satan was able to make this offer because until Christ's sacrifice on the cross, Satan still had dominion on earth. That's why Christ came, to break that dominion.

It was not the kingodms of men satin offered Jesus. For God says He rules over the kingdoms of men. It spiritual kingdoms to be picific the power behind powerful influences. Satin is the god of this world that is his dominion God has given him.

Look at it this way ... the kingdoms of the world are all manmade, and until we are free in Christ and put Him on the throne of our lives, Satan rules over us (man) through disobedience and rejection of Christ. So in Satan offering Christ rule over the kingdoms of the world, he was simply offering rule over sinful man, and all the kingdoms he creates on earth. Big temptation for your typical human ... Imagine all that power! But Jesus came to squash that power and set us free from the rule of sin and death - Satan's rule over us.

Jesus has defeated satin and made an open show of him. However satin is not going to give up till he is squshed.

I think the Lord Himself explains this exact thing in John 12:27-32 when He predicted His death ~ “Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.” The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

In Matthew 28:18-20, after His resurrection ... 'Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” In Luke 10:19, He gives all who believe in Him this authority - "I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you."

Yes, Satan is still running around playing the game, but he already knows his time is running out. Christ has conquered him and free us from his rule through belief in Him, but until we commit to Christ, Satan still has the power to take us down with him.

Jesus has given us the power to overcome satin, however He hasn't taken the kingdoms to rule them yet. Cause sation is not going to give up till he is bound and cast into the botomless pit. But praise be to God I don't think it will be long now.

 

[]RiSeN[]

Ok, ya, i had read all your posts. And i think we're on the same page, the only difference is that im going further into your question and also looking at Satan's motives. It was a ruse. It didnt even matter if Satan could deliver on his offer or not, he's the Father of the lie. Everything he is is deception.

 

[SonOfThunder]

Satan is a liar as we go back to page one and discover.

This shows that Satan had no right to even claim such a thing as ALL POWER
was already his.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Satan was a liar as shown previously.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it


James

 

[MbiaJc]

QUOTE]SonOfThunder[/QUOTE]

Satan is a liar as we go back to page one and discover.

Satin is the father of lies, however that doesn't anull the dominion God has given him to rule over. It is the reason he is losing his domenion, beacuse he used it for evil instead of good.

This shows that Satan had no right to even claim such a thing as ALL POWER
was already his.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

All power and authority has been given to Jesus, however He hasn't taken posession of all yet.

Satan was a liar as shown previously.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

That just means he used his domain for evil instead of good.

 

[nhzname]

It was not the kingodms of men satin offered Jesus. For God says He rules over the kingdoms of men. It spiritual kingdoms to be picific the power behind powerful influences. Satin is the god of this world that is his dominion God has given him.

Not that I really want to debate the situation, but the world and kingdoms of man ... are they not one and the same? Please provide scripture to show otherwise. Thanks. I also realize Satan can only offer what God has given him dominion over, which is why I believe he could legitimately make an offer to Christ.

Jesus has defeated satin and made an open show of him. However satin is not going to give up till he is squshed.

I understand this and stated as much further in my post.

Jesus has given us the power to overcome satin, however He hasn't taken the kingdoms to rule them yet. Cause sation is not going to give up till he is bound and cast into the botomless pit. But praise be to God I don't think it will be long now.

I guess you are agreeing with what I just said?

 

[nhzname]

nhzname

But Luke 10:19, I believe is before the resurrection, so Christ had the authority all a long from the time he watched Satan fall from heaven ? (Luke 10:18)

Fat

Yes, Fat, being the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, He would have all authority already. My statement was that until Christ defeated Satan through His death and resurrection, Satan still had dominion on the earth. Even now, it is still his realm, but it is conquered and just waiting for 'the troops to move in'.

 

[Dmckay]

Did\does Satin have the power and authority to give Jesus what he offered Him. When he took Him up on the mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world. And offered them to Jesus if He would only worship him.

And what kingdoms did he show Jesus?

5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

7If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

I would be interested in what you think. Thanks in advance

It is believed by many scholars that when Adam and Eve chose to listen to Satan rather than G-d, and ate of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that they ceded to Satan the Spiritual title or deed to the earth which had been entrusted to them. RememberG-d said they were to have dominion over the earth and see to its keeping.

Hence, Paul writes later about Satan being the god of this world, blinding the eyes of those who are perishing. Many believe that in Revelation when it speaks of an angelic being standing with one foot in the ocean and one foot on land in sort of a victor's stance, holding a small scroll. He cries out in a loud voice like a roaring lion, and the 7 thundersutter something in response. The angelic being then lifts his hand toward heaven, and swears by Him that liveth forever and ever, who created Heaven and the things that are in it, and the earth and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer. John is forbidden to write what was said. Many believe that this is symbolic of God reestablishing His Claiim to His creation which had temporarily been given to Satan by Adam and Eve's disobedience.

Remember, when Jesus was tempted, He didn't deny that Satan had the authority to offer rulership of all the kingdoms of earth to Jesus. Jesus response was, It is written that thou shalt worship the Lord thy G-d, and him only shalt thou serve." He could just has easily have deniied Satan's right or ability to offer this authority, but He didn't.

 

[]RiSeN[]

 

[MbiaJc]

Dmckay

It is believed by many scholars that when Adam and Eve chose to listen to Satan rather than G-d, and ate of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that they ceded to Satan the Spiritual title or deed to the earth which had been entrusted to them. RememberG-d said they were to have dominion over the earth and see to its keeping.

I don't think so for man never has been given the spiritual dominion to rule over? That has always been satins dominion. He was using that dominion on Adam and Eve for evil not good. He is today using his spiritual dominion for the same purpous.

Man was given the dominion over the physical earth and has never lost that dominion, even thoe man has not done a good job of it.

Satin did not offer Jesus the kingdoms of men for God says He Himself rules over them.

Hence, Paul writes later about Satan being the god of this world, blinding the eyes of those who are perishing. Many believe that in Revelation when it speaks of an angelic being standing with one foot in the ocean and one foot on land in sort of a victor's stance, holding a small scroll. He cries out in a loud voice like a roaring lion, and the 7 thundersutter something in response. The angelic being then lifts his hand toward heaven, and swears by Him that liveth forever and ever, who created Heaven and the things that are in it, and the earth and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer. John is forbidden to write what was said. Many believe that this is symbolic of God reestablishing His Claiim to His creation which had temporarily been given to Satan by Adam and Eve's disobedience.

I don't believe that is the way it is exactly. However satin and man are loosing their dominion because man hasn't been a good stewart. And satin has used his for evil instead of good.

Remember, when Jesus was tempted, He didn't deny that Satan had the authority to offer rulership of all the kingdoms of earth to Jesus. Jesus response was, It is written that thou shalt worship the Lord thy G-d, and him only shalt thou serve." He could just has easily have deniied Satan's right or ability to offer this authority, but He didn't.

Exactly, but it was the spiritual kingdoms and not the natural. No where in the Bible has God taken away mans dominion from him and given it to satin.

 

[MbiaJc]

nhzname

Not that I really want to debate the situation, but the world and kingdoms of man ... are they not one and the same? Please provide scripture to show otherwise. Thanks. [/QUOTE]

Satins dominion is spiritual, mans natural.


Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the, kingdoms of men and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest
oDan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shallbe with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

Satin couldn't have been talking about the kingdoms of men. For Jesus would have told him he didn't have the power to give them, for God rules over them and gives them to whom he pleases.
fmen.

 

[Dmckay]

I don't think so for man never has been given the spiritual dominion to rule over? That has always been satins dominion. He was using that dominion on Adam and Eve for evil not good. He is today using his spiritual dominion for the same purpous.

Man was given the dominion over the physical earth and has never lost that dominion, even thoe man has not done a good job of it.

Satin did not offer Jesus the kingdoms of men for God says He Himself rules over them.

I don't believe that is the way it is exactly. However satin and man are loosing their dominion because man hasn't been a good stewart. And satin has used his for evil instead of good.

Exactly, but it was the spiritual kingdoms and not the natural. No where in the Bible has God taken away mans dominion from him and given it to satin.

Luke 4:5-8 5 "And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." And where within this are you getting the offer of spiritual dominion being offered?

The offer/temptation here was for Jesus to accept the rulership over man in the world's system. To forego G-d's decree and plan for the complete salvation of the elect and creation. Remember Romans 8:22
"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." Creation was also affected by the fall. Had Jesus succumbed to temptation He might have ruled the world as Satan's servant, but mankind would not have been redeemed. Since Jesus was and is completely G-d, He was able not to give in to temptation and sin. But being at the same time also completely human, in order to be mankind's kinsman redeemer, He was able to feel the stress of the temptation given what He was facing all His life.

Remember His prayer in the Garden, "Father, if there be any way, make this cup to pass from Me. But never the less, not My will, but Thine be done."

If you read almost any conservative commentator or Theologian on these verses you will find that most will give you the same answer.

 

[nhzname]

Satin couldn't have been talking about the kingdoms of men. For Jesus would have told him he didn't have the power to give them, for God rules over them and gives them to whom he pleases.

Yes, in Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar acknowledges God's dominion, and so do we, because we understand that Satan only has dominion over whatever God gives him. In Luke 4:5, 'The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.' The 'world' to me is earth, man's dwelling place - man's domain. In John 12:31, Christ Himself calls Satan the 'prince of this world'. So, I see Satan tempting Christ with the kingdoms of the world - man's domain.

 

[MbiaJc]

Dmckay

Luke 4:5-8 5 "And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." And where within this are you getting the offer of spiritual dominion being offered?

It could not have been the offer of rulership over man because God says He Himself does that. The only power satin has over us if we let him is spiritual. He messes with the wandering mind. That is not natural power it is spiritual.

Dan 4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the, kingdoms of men and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest
oDan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shallbe with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

The offer/temptation here was for Jesus to accept the rulership over man in the world's system. To forego G-d's decree and plan for the complete salvation of the elect and creation. Remember Romans 8:22

Not so! Could not have been rule over man because God has not given that dominion to anyone. He rules over men Himself. Satin rules over the spiritual realm of this world. He uses his power and influence for evil not good.

"For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." Creation was also affected by the fall.

Yes the whole creation was cursed at the fall of man.

Had Jesus succumbed to temptation He might have ruled the world as Satan's servant, but mankind would not have been redeemed. Since Jesus was and is completely G-d, He was able not to give in to temptation and sin. But being at the same time also completely human, in order to be mankind's kinsman redeemer, He was able to feel the stress of the temptation given what He was facing all His life.

He may have ruled the spiritual realm not the natural over man as satins servent.

The dominion that satin offered Jesus was the power and influences he tempts us with even today. The power is the power behind powerful influences.

Remember His prayer in the Garden, "Father, if there be any way, make this cup to pass from Me. But never the less, not My will, but Thine be done."

Yes, but what has that got to do with what satin offered Him.

I think Jesus knew as a small child what His destiny was.

If you read almost any conservative commentator or Theologian on these verses you will find that most will give you the same answer.

Which has the most authority as to God's truth, "almost any conservative commentator" or the Holy Spirit which is my teacher.

Here is satin domenion that he rules over.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Doe not sound like a natural kingdom to me.

 

[MbiaJc]

Yes, in Daniel, Nebuchadnezzar acknowledges God's dominion, and so do we, because we understand that Satan only has dominion over whatever God gives him. In Luke 4:5, 'The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world.' The 'world' to me is earth, man's dwelling place - man's domain. In John 12:31, Christ Himself calls Satan the 'prince of this world'. So, I see Satan tempting Christ with the kingdoms of the world - man's domain.

To me it is the spiritual kingdoms of the world, and the dominion satin rules over confirms that.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.