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Satan's number one goal...

k4c

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Deception!

Satan's number one goal is to deceive the world.

Revelation 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world...

Satan's deception is not to lead people into obedience to God, but rather, to disobey God. But in order for Satan to deceive the world he would have to devise such a crafty plan that would have the ability to deceive. A plan that would allow people to believe they are worshiping God all the while they are being decieved or else they would not go for it

Matthew 15:9 Their worship is worthless, for they teach their man-made laws instead of those from God.'''

Mark 7:7-13 And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "For laying aside the commandment of God... And He said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. (Which commandments?) "For Moses said, `Honor your father and your mother'; and, `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' "But you say, `If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban (that is, dedicated to the temple)''; "and you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.''

Since the Law is the guideline for obedience and true worship, Satan would have to some how do away with the Law, change the Law or create a system that appears godly but denies the power that defines godliness, which is the Law.

2 Timothy 3:5 they have a form of godliness but they deny its power. And from such people turn away!

The Law defines godliness and manifests outwardly in our lives as godly love. Do away with the Law and the world becomes lawless. When the world becomes lawless it becomes loveless.

Matthew 24:3 Now as Jesus sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?''

Listen to Jesus' reply.

Matthew 24:12 "because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

Since the Law defines love, love will grow cold when the Law is done away with.

The whole foundation of godly charater is seen in those who keep the commandments as opposed to those who pratice lawlessness.

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. "Many will say to Me in that day, `Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

What do you think lawlessness is?

Matthew 13:41 "The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,

Romans 6:19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

In order to be anointed with the oil of gladness you will have to love righteousness and hate lawlessness.

Hebrews 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.''

You can't teach the Law is done away with and still love righteousness because the Law defines righteousness. This is Babylon (confusion) at its best...

1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:6-7 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
 
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k4c

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Can you define "the Law" as described in the OP?

BFA

Why don't we allow God to define the Law He uses as the standard for godly love. That way if you have a bone to pick it won't be with me.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery,'' "You shall not murder,'' "You shall not steal,'' "You shall not bear false witness,'' "You shall not covet,'' and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'' Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

So now, which Law does God use to define love? You might have to give up some of your misconceptions to do this but be honest...
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Why don't we allow God to define the Law He uses as the standard for godly love. That way if you have a bone to pick it won't be with me.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery,'' "You shall not murder,'' "You shall not steal,'' "You shall not bear false witness,'' "You shall not covet,'' and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'' Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

now, which Law does God use to define love? You might have to give up some of your misconceptions to do this but be honest...
Based on what you've posted, it looks like the concept of "love" relates to subjects such as adultery, murder, stealing, bearing false witness and coveting. Are you suggesting that this is a comprehensive definition of "law?" Are there more attributes of "law" or "love" that we should also discuss? Does the sabbath factor into this in some way? I just want to make sure I have a big picture understanding of all of the subjects you connect with the concept of "law." Then, I'd be happy to address them individually.

BFA
 
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RND

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What does it involve?

BFA
Spiritual sacrifices.

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
 
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k4c

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Based on what you've posted, it looks like the concept of "love" relates to subjects such as adultery, murder, stealing, bearing false witness and coveting. Are you suggesting that this is a comprehensive definition of "law?" Are there more attributes of "law" or "love" that we should also discuss? Does the sabbath factor into this in some way? I just want to make sure I have a big picture understanding of all of the subjects you connect with the concept of "law." Then, I'd be happy to address them individually.

BFA

I Have personally explained this numerous times but for old time sake, I'll explain it again.

The Law is not the end all definition of love, but rather, it defines godly love at its basic level. Every sin and crime committed in the world has its root in God's law.

This is all so very basic and I've gone over it many times before so to me this is just another tactic to wear out the saints.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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I Have personally explained this numerous times but for old time sake, I'll explain it again.

The Law is not the end all definition of love, but rather, it defines godly love at its basic level. Every sin and crime committed in the world has its root in God's law.

I asked you how you define law. After doing a little searching through the various threads in this forum, I'm just not finding any place where you've ever defined it. However, it is certainly possible that I missed something.

In your above post, you seem to concede that you've offered an incomplete definition of law (let me know if I've misunderstood you). Without a more complete definition of law, I'm not sure how to view your OP. In light of your OP, does "law" include "the sabbath?" Does it include "the passover?"

This is all so very basic and I've gone over it many times before so to me this is just another tactic to wear out the saints.

Fair enough. If it's basic, then there should be an easily accessible definition that we can use as a basis for continuing our discussion. I just don't yet understand what that definition is. Dodging the question through a repeated phrase such as "wear out the saints" probably won't get us there. Ultimately, I believe it is most productive to understand how terms are used; this leads to better communication and fewer misunderstandings.

BFA
 
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k4c

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I asked you how you define law. After doing a little searching through the various threads in this forum, I'm just not finding any place where you've ever defined it. However, it is certainly possible that I missed something.

In your above post, you seem to concede that you've offered an incomplete definition of law (let me know if I've misunderstood you). Without a more complete definition of law, I'm not sure how to view your OP. In light of your OP, does "law" include "the sabbath?" Does it include "the passover?"

Fair enough. If it's basic, then there should be an easily accessible definition that we can use as a basis for continuing our discussion. I just don't yet understand what that definition is. Dodging the question through a repeated phrase such as "wear out the saints" probably won't get us there. Ultimately, I believe it is most productive to understand how terms are used; this leads to better communication and fewer misunderstandings.

BFA

Maybe I should rephrase the word Law and replace it with the words, Ten Commandments. Would that help you?

The Ten Commandments are not the end all definition of godly love but they are the foundation. Every sin and crime committed in the world has its root in the Ten Commandments. The Ten commandents, when obeyed, will manifest outwardly as love for God and man.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery,'' "You shall not murder,'' "You shall not steal,'' "You shall not bear false witness,'' "You shall not covet,'' and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'' Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

The Ten Comandments were part of the Old Covenant. They werew ritten in stone by God's own finger. Under the New Covenant they are written on the heart by God's Holy Spirit.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Maybe I should rephrase the word Law and replace it with the words, Ten Commandments. Would that help you?
It does. Thank you.

This further clarification helps me understand what you mean in the OP when you refer to "law." However, I note that the following passages do not define "lawlessness" as "the absence of the ten commandments":
because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness

For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

Hebrews 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.''
With this in view, is it possible that "lawlessness" does not mean "the absence of the ten commandments" and instead means "the absence of righteousness?" The context of these passages seems to support his position.

Note that "righteousness" and "the ten commandments" are not synonymous terms:
"But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus." Romans 3

"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." Galatians 2

"More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,

9and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead." Phil. 3
The Ten Comandments were part of the Old Covenant.
I agree. Exodus 19-20 confirms that they were a central part of the old covenant.

They were written in stone by God's own finger. Under the New Covenant they are written on the heart by God's Holy Spirit.
Under the new covenant, the letters engraved on stones are the ministry that brings death. Unless we want to conclude that the Spirit write on the hearts of men a ministry that brings death, we might notice that 2 Corinthians 3 contrasts the ministry of letters engraved on stones with the ministry of the Spirit. The former brings death and the latter brings life.

BFA
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Once again, you seem to be very comfortable and set in your beliefs, not someone who is seeking. Your posts that seem to ask for clarification, thereby feigning ignorance, are only to get the respondant to make a specific statement so you can counter argue it with your beliefs. As transparent as glass...

Just for giggles, who enjoys the bait and hook style of BFA?

I suspect fellow non SDA will respond favourably but I doubt the Adventist brethren will.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Once again, you seem to be very comfortable and set in your beliefs, not someone who is seeking.

We've covered this before. Just to help me understand, is this what K4C means when he refers to "wearing out the saints."

Your posts that seem to ask for clarification, thereby feigning ignorance, are only to get the respondant to make a specific statement so you can counter argue it with your beliefs. As transparent as glass...

I'm glad it's transparent for I have nothing to hide. I am not ignorant of the teachings of SDAism nor have I ever claimed to be. However, I am often ignorant of the specific beliefs and thoughts of individuals. To learn more about that, I ask questions. I prefer this approach to merely assuming I know what other people believe.

Just for giggles, who enjoys the bait and hook style of BFA?

This seems rather personal and it appears to be the type of harassment that Woobada finds so distasteful. Why would we want to gang up on individuals and discuss them on a personal level? Wouldn't it be more productive to discuss ideas rather than people? If we're zealous about love, that seems to be a more desirable option.

BFA
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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This seems rather personal and it appears to be the type of harassment that Woobada finds so distasteful. Why would we want to gang up on individuals and discuss them on a personal level? Wouldn't it be more productive to discuss ideas rather than people? If we're zealous about love, that seems to be a more desirable option.

BFA

Commenting on your posting style is not getting personal, it's commenting on you posting style, which obviously is distruptive to more than just me...
 
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honorthesabbath

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I see the WRITTEN 10c law as a sad emergency action on God's part to teach His children HOW we are to show love toward Him and each other.

You see--that law of love and liberty used to be written on the hearts of our First Parents. There was no need to write them on stone then. But when the selfishness of sin entered into the heart of man, then it became necessary for God to REMIND His children of what true love looks like. After all--for us to 'think' that we know what Godly love is on our own is presumptuous.

It's like we parents, who must teach our children to not kick, punch and steal toys from the siblings. Selfishness is the state of man now. The law is there to remind us, in this fallen state, how God wants us to act.

Thank God that He has given us the Holy Spirit to guide us back to the precepts of the law of love. I also thank God that He has promised to RESTORE us to the pre-fall condition of unselfish love. We shall 'grow up' in the earth made new!

I see disobedience to the law of God as a break in trust towards Him and His promises to restore us. The law of God is honorable and right and holy!
 
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k4c

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I see the WRITTEN 10c law as a sad emergency action on God's part to teach His children HOW we are to show love toward Him and each other.

You see--that law of love and liberty used to be written on the hearts of our First Parents. There was no need to write them on stone then. But when the selfishness of sin entered into the heart of man, then it became necessary for God to REMIND His children of what true love looks like. After all--for us to 'think' that we know what Godly love is on our own is presumptuous.

It's like we parents, who must teach our children to not kick, punch and steal toys from the siblings. Selfishness is the state of man now. The law is there to remind us, in this fallen state, how God wants us to act.

Thank God that He has given us the Holy Spirit to guide us back to the precepts of the law of love. I also thank God that He has promised to RESTORE us to the pre-fall condition of unselfish love. We shall 'grow up' in the earth made new!

I see disobedience to the law of God as a break in trust towards Him and His promises to restore us. The law of God is honorable and right and holy!

Amen....
 
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