Satan's "Kingdom" Will End Up Very Tiny.

[Jack Hectorman]

As a Calvinist and a Postmillennialist, I have great appreciation for the passage below from Dr. Lorraine Boettner's The Reformed Doctrine Of Predestination, it has for decades been one of my favorite passages in all of Calvinistic literature.

I wanted to share the passage with some of you good people here at CF.

"...Our position...has been very ably stated by Dr. W.G.T. Shedd in the following words: 'Let it be noticed that the question, how many are elected and how many are reprobated, has nothing to do with the question whether God may either elect or reprobate sinners.

If it is intrinsically right for Him either to elect or not to elect, either to save or not save free moral agents, who by their own fault have plunged themselves into sin and ruin, numbers are of no account in establishing the rightness. And if it is intrinscially wrong, numbers are of no account in establishing wrongness. Neither is there any necessity that the number of the elect should be small, and that of the non-elect great, or the converse.

The election and the non-election, and also the numbers of the elect and the non-elect, are all alike a matter of Sovereignity...

At the same time it relieves the solemnity and awfulness which overhangs the decree of reprobation, to remember that the Scriptures teach that the number of the elect is much greater than that of the non-elect.

The kingdom of the Redeemer in this fallen world is always described (in Scripture) as far greater and grander than that of Satan. The operation of grace on Earth is uniformly represented as mighter than sin. 'Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.' And the final number of the redeemed is said to be a 'number which no man can number', but that of the lost is not so magnified and emphasized....

The doctrine of Election taken in itself tells us nothing about what the ultimate ratio shall be. The only limit set is that not all shall be saved...

So far as the principles of sovereignity and personal election are concerned there is no reason why a Calvinist might not hold that all men will finally be saved; and some Calvinists have actually held this view, 'Calvinism', wrote W.P.Patterson, of the University of Edinburgh, 'is the only system which contains principles--in its doctrines of election and irresistible grace--that could make credible a theory of universal salvation.'...

and Dr. S. G. Craig, Editor of Christianity Today, and one of the outstanding men in the Presbyterian Church....says, 'No doubt many Calvinists, like many non-Calvinists, have, in obedience to the supposed teaching of Scripture, held that few will be saved, but there is no good reason why Calvinists may not believe that the saved will ultimately embrace the greater portion of the human race.

At any rate, our leading theologians--Charles Hodge, Robert L. Dabney, W.G.T.Shedd, and Benjamin Warfield--have so held...as stated by Patterson, Calvinism, with its emphasis on the intimate personal relationship between God and each individual soul, is the only system which would offer a LOGICAL basis for universalism, if that view were not contradicted by the Scriptures..."
__Dr. L. Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, pgs.130-132

Cheers.

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[AndOne]

I disagree with your assessment, scripture clearly reveals that there is eternal damnation. Jesus Himself said that road is narrow and few find it.

 

[RINO 72]

I disagree with your assessment, scripture clearly reveals that there is eternal damnation. Jesus Himself said that road is narrow and few find it.

The articles states "if" that view were not contradicted by scripture.

 

[Jack Hectorman]

The articles states "if" that view were not contradicted by scripture.

Exactly, RINO.

Note to Behe: The passage does not eliminate "eternal damnation" for the reprobate (ie non-elect.)

I disagree with your assessment, scripture clearly reveals that there is eternal damnation. Jesus Himself said that road is narrow and few find it.

/smile ... Please read the OP more carefully.

One excerpt from the OP:

The kingdom of the Redeemer in this fallen world is always described (in Scripture) as far greater and grander than that of Satan. The operation of grace on Earth is uniformly represented as mighter than sin. 'Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.' And the final number of the redeemed is said to be a 'number which no man can number', but that of the lost is not so magnified and emphasized....

The doctrine of Election taken in itself tells us nothing about what the ultimate ratio shall be. The only limit set is that not all shall be saved ...

"...not all shall be saved..." ↑

The great Calvinistic doctrine of Unconditional Election will permit the Sovereign God to save any number of human beings He so desires to save, and that based upon pure mercy and grace, with human merit totally out of the picture as the reason why some are elected to eternal life and some are not elected to eternal life.

Since what I just said is the truth, then Calvin's great doctrine of Unconditional Election means that the Sovereign God could have elected 98% of the human race to eternal life. The passage does not say that He did do that, it merely says that He could have done that while remaining consistent with His principles contained within Unconditional Election.

The passage specifically and clearly denies Universalism, as RINO noted above.

Cheers.

♫

PS
Btw, this distinguished list of Reformed theologians Boettner, Charles Hodge, Robert L. Dabney, W.G.T.Shedd, and Benjamin Warfield, would never sign on to Universalism.

 

[AndOne]

....but Jesus still said the road is narrow and that few will find it. I love the book by Boetnner that was quoted but he is far too optimistic if not unrealistic. Apologies for not reading the OP all the way through the first time.

 

[HenryMaxwell]

I daily stand amazed at the magnificent mercy and grace of God that He demonstrated to we sinners and I have always greatly appreciated Dr. Loraine Boettner and also the work that was quoted in the Opening Post.

Also I greatly appreciate Christian Forums.net and I look forward to reading the posts here from my fellow Christians and to both learning and making contributions to the discussions in threads here.

I love to read and study God's word the Bible and I especially love the great doctrinal epistles of the Apostle Paul such as Romans and Galatians and Ephesians.

Henry

 

[Jack Hectorman]

....but Jesus still said the road is narrow and that few will find it. I love the book by Boetnner that was quoted but he is far too optimistic if not unrealistic.

/smile ... If we Postmillennialists are correct (and we have an enormous number of good solid Biblical reasons to believe we are correct) then the vast majority of the human race will be saved and when Jesus said the road was narrow and few there be that find it, He was describing the local conditions of that one time and place in history where He was, and He was NOT stating a universal principle that was to be forever applied to the growth and success of His Church and His Great Commission.

I don't have time to develope it now, but if you interpret Jesus' "few there be that find it" as Him teaching a universal principle, you will have serious trouble explaining how the word "few" can be harmonized with Revelation 7:9-10 which says:

"9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb.”

________________

I hold the position that its impossible for you to make the word "few" harmonize with Revelation 7:9 "...a great multitude that no one could count..." cannot be reconciled with "few there be that find it" unless this phrase is interpreted to refer only to the people of Jesus' time on earth.

Also I would called your attention to the Abrahamic Covenant.
Genesis 22:17-18

God said to Abraham:

"I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.” Gen. 22:17-18



I interpret the phrase, "as numerous as the ...sand on the seashore" to be a figure of speech designed to teach a great truth, and that truth is the same as taught by Rev. 7:9-10 .. and here I will just repeat basically what I said about Rev. 7:9-10


I interpret the phrase "as numerous as the ...sand on the seashore" to be a figure of speech designed to teach a truth, and the truth I think this phrase teaches is that the final number of the redeemed in Heaven who know, love, and praise King Jesus will be such a HUGE ENOUMOUS NUMBER that it will appear utterly impossible for anyone to even count them.

Picture in your mind the task of counting the number of grains of sand on the seashores of the earth. Make it easier, just picture in your mind the task of counting the number of grains of sand in just 100 dump trucks each carrying some 18 tons of sand.

I think we talking mega-trillions Xs mega-trillions of people from every nation, tribe, and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb who is worthy of such a huge-enormous Kingdom. And if the Lord Jesus is going to have a Kingdom of huge enormous numbers as described up there, then there will be mega-millenniums of human history yet ahead in order produce for King Jesus a Kingdom full of people "as numerous as the ...sand on the seashore"

There are mega-trillions Xs mega-trillions of grains of sand on the seashores of the world and the Apostle Paul tied the Christian Church directly into the Abrahamic covenent in Romans chapter 4 and Galations chapter 3. "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galations 3:29

/grin ... Anyway, all this ↑ can be food for thought.

Btw, Dr. Boettner is a strong postmillennialist. Consider giving his great work a slow read. I can't post a link for you to amazon because I don't yet have 50 posts here, but you can go to amazon and type in "The Millennial Boettner" and immediately pull it up. New for $12.00 plus about $4.00 S/H

I have this great book, have it on my desk for easy reference, and I believe it will be a great blessing to you.

Cheers.

♫ ♪ ♫ ♪

 

[Jack Hectorman]

I daily stand amazed at the magnificent mercy and grace of God that He demonstrated to we sinners and I have always greatly appreciated Dr. Loraine Boettner and also the work that was quoted in the Opening Post.

Also I greatly appreciate Christian Forums.net and I look forward to reading the posts here from my fellow Christians and to both learning and making contributions to the discussions in threads here.

I love to read and study God's word the Bible and I especially love the great doctrinal epistles of the Apostle Paul such as Romans and Galatians and Ephesians.

Henry

Amen to all that Henry and God Bless.

Cheers.

♫ ♪

 

[AndOne]

Descendants add up over time. No disagreement that Abrahm's descendents will be as numerous as the sand... No disagreement that there will be a great multitude of believers that represent all the nations of the earth... Where I disagree with Boetnner is that most of these believers will be comprised of people from a future generation. The multitudes of believers come from all generations throughout history. Given that every generation to date has been comprised of more unbelievers than believers I think it's safe to say there will be more people in hell than in heaven which is consistent with Jesus' statement.

 

[Jack Hectorman]

Descendants add up over time. No disagreement that Abrahm's descendents will be as numerous as the sand... No disagreement that there will be a great multitude of believers that represent all the nations of the earth... Where I disagree with Boetnner is that most of these believers will be comprised of people from a future generation. The multitudes of believers come from all generations throughout history. Given that every generation to date has been comprised of more unbelievers than believers I think it's safe to say there will be more people in hell than in heaven which is consistent with Jesus' statement.
(bolded by Jack)

Thanks for your reply Behe's Boy,

You don't need to believe that the majority of humanity will be lost in Hell and in be in torment for eternity in order to be an orthodox Bible believing Christian.

There are many arguments against that position and one of them is this:

Philosophically the position is absurd (the position is absurd, not you) because it is illogical and highly unreasonable to believe that the Sovereign God would launch a program knowing full well before He launched it that the majority of His human creatures would end up suffering for all eternity. This in not consistent with what God has told us about Himself, and its unnecessary to hold it. Its not consistent with what Eternal Hell actually is, juxtaposed with what the love of God actually is. You will probably flip that off with a few one-liners but if you do, you're not actually letting yourself think deep and long about what Eternal Hell actually is. You're quickly mentally by-passing what unending sets of tens of millions of years of agony actually is.

You don't need it. A local interpretation will work just fine. The text does not say, nor does it even slightly suggest, that Jesus was laying down a universal principle for all generations. That interpretation is one you put on the text.

Later ...

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