Satan's Fall?

[Michael Mc]

I've recently recieved a couple questions concerning Satan.  And I believe the best way to answer them is to address the origin of Satan himself.  What do others think? Where did he come from and what is his ultimate end?

I believe that Satan was created by God, for all things were created by God.  I believe that Satan was made the way he is, for he was a sinner from the begining.  I believe that he is fullfilling a part of God's plan perfectly, just the way God has intended.  And in the end he along with the rest of the the things in heaven, and earth and under the earth will be reconciled to God. 

What say you guys?

Thanks God Bless,

Mike

 

 

[armothe]

I'd like for people to quote passages from the Bible that refer to the "fall" of Satan.

-A

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 12:51 AM Michael Mc said this in Post #1

I've recently recieved a couple questions concerning Satan.  And I believe the best way to answer them is to address the origin of Satan himself.  What do others think? Where did he come from and what is his ultimate end?

I believe that Satan was created by God, for all things were created by God.  I believe that Satan was made the way he is, for he was a sinner from the begining.  I believe that he is fullfilling a part of God's plan perfectly, just the way God has intended.  And in the end he along with the rest of the the things in heaven, and earth and under the earth will be reconciled to God. 

What say you guys?

Thanks God Bless,

Mike

That's NOT what the Bible says.

• 
  Re 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
  
  Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Michael Mc]

God is all powerfull, totally sovereign.  He has created all things (Rom 11:36,2 Cor 5:18).  So how could there be any evil in the world?  Could God have created it?  Isn't it our free moral agency that God has been so gracious to have given us that is responsible for the evil in this world?

The problem with asserting that it is the free will of man that is responsible for evil, is that it does not lift the responsibility from God at all.  Even if Free will was true, God would be responsible for having created us with this ability.  And considering God is all wise, He would have foreknew the outcome of our choices.  He is as responisble for the evil that we create as a manufacturer is for any defects that are found in their product. 

This brings me to the idea that Satan, who was once a good angel, "decided" one day to thwart the will of God, and decieve Eve.  It is thought that since we humans must have free will, than so do the angels.  Here is another problem.  People generally think that they are releiving God of the responibility of evil, by puting it all on Satan.  But if God created satan as a good angel, some say the most beutiful and most powerfull angel, first, then Satan went against God, that would make God a sinning God. 

The definition of sin is "to miss the mark", or to make a mistake.  So, if God had made Satan good, intending him to be good, then Satan turns around and decieves God, that means God made a mistake in creating Satan. 

No, Satan was created evil in the begining.  For to say anything else would be to make God a sinner, and that is absolutly false. 

 

 

[Michael Mc]

Yesterday at 10:36 PM OldShepherd said this in Post #3
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.[/list]

They are cast into that lake which will purify them, as it states in the Greek. 


Re 20:10  .... cast into the lake of fire and brimstone = Theion

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2303&version=kjv

where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented = Basanizo http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=928&version=kjv 

day and night for ever = Aion and ever = Aion  http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=165&version=kjv

I know you like to assert that Aion means eternity, but wouldn't it sound a little weird for it say "for eternity and eternity"?

Take care, and God Bless,

Mike

 

[CopticOrthodox]

Yesterday at 03:17 PM armothe said this in Post #2

I'd like for people to quote passages from the Bible that refer to the "fall" of Satan.

-A

Luke 10:18: "I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven"

Rev 12:4: "His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth."

Satan was created by God, God created everything.  But Satan was not created "as he is", since God created everything good, which is one of the themes of the creation passage in Genesis.  If God created Satan evil, then God created all the evil an suffering in the world, and chose for man to fall.  This God is not good, and is not the Christian God.

God knew that Satan, 1/3 of the angels, and man would fall.  He allowed this, and we can trust that it will come to a greater good, that we will have a better place in Heaven that we had before the fall.  But God did not cause Satan or us to fall or to do evil, we chose it.  The fact that He knew we would does not mean that He forced us to.

God did not miss the mark with Lucifer, He made Him good, but with free choice.  He used that free choice, and chose againt God, some speculate out of pride over the half spiritual half material beings God would later created, for sure out of pride.  Giving His creation free choice doesn't make Him a sinning God, making them intentionally evil would.  He simply doesn't want to force us to choose Him, or it's not our choice, and the consequence of that is that we can not chose Him.  It doesn't mean He forces us, or He screwed up creating us, it's that He chose to created us with the ability to chose, and that was not an evil or sinful action for Him to take.

Those who chose to be separate from God and go to Hell will remain there.  Otherwise God would be forcing us to chose Him, and then would be the point in giving us choice in the first place?  The Angles' choice was set the moment they made it, since the were outside time with God, and didn't make the decision based on time.  For humans, our chance to repent is over when we die, and our decision is final.

There are plenty of verses that indicate the permenance of Hell, such as the ones already quoted by others, and Mark 9:44, 46, 48. Mat 25:46: "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The idea that Satan will be saved was unheard of until Origen, and it was immediatly condemned by the entire Church.  It was not what the early Church believed, not what had been taught to them by Christ.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 03:11 AM Michael Mc said this in Post #5

They are cast into that lake which will purify them, as it states in the Greek. 

Re 20:10  .... cast into the lake of fire and brimstone = Theion

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2303&version=kjv

Absolutely false! "aionios" to "aionios" is further emphasized by the phrase "no rest day or night" "No rest" means "NO REST! And below is the definition for brimstone, you linked to. Brimstone, ie. sulphur, was thought by the ancients to have purifying powers but we know that is not true. And the Greek word for "purify," "kaqarismoV/"katharismos" is NOT used here. The word "theion" is NEVER used elsewhere in the N.T. where it means to purify. Had God intended for His word to say "purify" in this passage, why isn't a word that absolutely means purified used?

• brimstone
  divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease.

where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented = Basanizo http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=928&version=kjv 

The definition you linked to.

• 
  Basanizo
  to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
  to question by applying torture
  to torture
  to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
  to be harassed, distressed
  of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind

day and night for ever = Aion and ever = Aion  http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=165&version=kjv

Your definition.

• 
  Aion
  for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
  the worlds, universe
  period of time, age

I know you like to assert that Aion means eternity, but wouldn't it sound a little weird for it say "for eternity and eternity"?

Not only have I asserted it I have PROVEN it from the LSJ Classical Greek lexicon and from the early church fathers. The false unorthodox belief which you are promoting dates to about 1850 AD.

"wouldn't it sound a little weird for it say "for eternity and eternity"?" Absolutely NOT, if you understand Hebrew thought. And I might be wrong but I think John was a Hebrew. The O.T. has many examples where words have been doubled for emphasis, such as the following. Note, in particular, that exact wording in Psalms. It is NOT strange when David says, "from everlasting, and to everlasting" Also note the doubling of "Amen, and Amen" Which OBTW were the words that Jesus spoke that are translated, "Verily, verily" or "Truly, truly."

• 
  Psa 41:13 Blessed [be] the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen. (Ps 90:2, 93:2, 103:17, 106:48)
  
  Ge 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
  
  Ge 49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.
  
  1 Ki 2:8 And, behold, [thou hast] with thee Shimei the son of Gera, a Benjamite of Bahurim, which cursed me with a grievous curse in the day when I went to Mahanaim: but he came down to meet me at Jordan, and I sware to him by the LORD, saying, I will not put thee to death with the sword.

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 03:00 AM Michael Mc said this in Post #4

God is all powerfull, totally sovereign.  He has created all things (Rom 11:36,2 Cor 5:18).  So how could there be any evil in the world?  Could God have created it?  Isn't it our free moral agency that God has been so gracious to have given us that is responsible for the evil in this world?

The problem with asserting that it is the free will of man that is responsible for evil, is that it does not lift the responsibility from God at all.  Even if Free will was true, God would be responsible for having created us with this ability.  And considering God is all wise, He would have foreknew the outcome of our choices.  He is as responisble for the evil that we create as a manufacturer is for any defects that are found in their product. 

This brings me to the idea that Satan, who was once a good angel, "decided" one day to thwart the will of God, and decieve Eve.  It is thought that since we humans must have free will, than so do the angels.  Here is another problem.  People generally think that they are releiving God of the responibility of evil, by puting it all on Satan.  But if God created satan as a good angel, some say the most beutiful and most powerfull angel, first, then Satan went against God, that would make God a sinning God. 

The definition of sin is "to miss the mark", or to make a mistake.  So, if God had made Satan good, intending him to be good, then Satan turns around and decieves God, that means God made a mistake in creating Satan. 

No, Satan was created evil in the begining.  For to say anything else would be to make God a sinner, and that is absolutly false.

Your teaching is the one that is absolutely false! Note, that Jesus said "Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." What part of "NOT" do we not understand? Does "NOT" mean later?

• 
  Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Is God responsible for mankinds sins? Absolutely not!

• 
  Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.[Psalm 19]
  20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
  21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
  22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

 

[wryan]

Today at 01:00 PM Michael Mc said this in Post #4

God is all powerfull, totally sovereign.  He has created all things (Rom 11:36,2 Cor 5:18).  So how could there be any evil in the world?  Could God have created it?  Isn't it our free moral agency that God has been so gracious to have given us that is responsible for the evil in this world?

The problem with asserting that it is the free will of man that is responsible for evil, is that it does not lift the responsibility from God at all.  Even if Free will was true, God would be responsible for having created us with this ability.  And considering God is all wise, He would have foreknew the outcome of our choices.  He is as responisble for the evil that we create as a manufacturer is for any defects that are found in their product. 

This brings me to the idea that Satan, who was once a good angel, "decided" one day to thwart the will of God, and decieve Eve.  It is thought that since we humans must have free will, than so do the angels.  Here is another problem.  People generally think that they are releiving God of the responibility of evil, by puting it all on Satan.  But if God created satan as a good angel, some say the most beutiful and most powerfull angel, first, then Satan went against God, that would make God a sinning God. 

The definition of sin is "to miss the mark", or to make a mistake.  So, if God had made Satan good, intending him to be good, then Satan turns around and decieves God, that means God made a mistake in creating Satan. 

No, Satan was created evil in the begining.  For to say anything else would be to make God a sinner, and that is absolutly false. 

 

Michael,

I can see your reasoning here but cannot help but feel that this serves as an elaborate way of taking the blame off of ourselves and putting it on God.  I see this as saying it was not God's mercy that redeemed us, it was His responsibility.  This would take a gift and turn it into something we were owed.  I have read where FL has questioned why man today is still born into sin, questioning is it just that we are blamed for Adam and Eve's sin, and this seems to go right along with this.

The word says clearly that God feels that He has given man enough for him/her to be held accountable for his/her actions.  He has given us enough for us to pay the debts, or recieve the rewards of our own choices.  We can choose God, or we can choose ourselves. 

I believe that He opens the door to salvation to all, and gives the choice to enter to all.  Whether we are dressed for the wedding, is on us.   (The main argument I've heard concerning our choice is that it would put the glory on us over God.  As I read Ben Johnson once say, as much glory as I would get if you wrapped a present and gave it to me, and I accepted it.)  

Man's first sin, even more so than disobedience was pride.  It was putting the focus on me, over God.  Can you not see this same pride saying it is not my fault I sin, it is not my fault I am condemned.  It is God's responsibility to save me, because it's His fault I sin.  God would be cruel if he allowed my actions to come to their own fruition.  

I think the difference in our views is that you see purification as something owed, I see it as a gift.(forgive and please correct me if I'm stating your views incorrectly)  In other words, I believe truly that if Jesus would have never came and we all were sent to hell God would still be 100 percent just in His actions.  Christ was a blessing, a sacrafice, and a gift in my eyes, not an act of justice.  

Justice is harsh, it is strict, it is not something to be thought of as merciful or unmerciful, it is black and white, giving no leway to the letter of the law.  God is just, and yet He is also loving, merciful, and forgiving.  I feel it is important that we don't confuse God's justice with His mercy, for they are seperate, and yet He is both.  He does not allow His mercy to go against His justice, He finds ways to both be merciful and just, but His mercy is not needed in His justice, it is His choice and freedom to give it as He sees fit. 

Jesus said He did not come to abolish the law He came to fulfill it.  He lived His life to the letter of God's law.  He also showed mercy, but in different measure to different people.  He told John he would die of old age, while the other apostles were crucified, stoned, fed to lions, and boiled alive.  Peter said why am I to die this way and not him?  Is it because of justice we might ask? 

I would say that He chose to be merciful to John and not Peter because He wanted to.  Is it evil that He knew Peter would be crucified, or was it a blessing to John that he would not?  Is Peter due a reward over John because of the way he died?  What I'm saying is that the wages of sin is death.  We can argue what is meant by death here, but my focus is that anything above whatever the scriptures mean by death in this verse is not a step of justice, it is a step of mercy and love within justice.   

Through mercy and love, and within justice, I believe the Lord has given all man the opportunity to inherit what is Christ's because He has given His inheritance for us to share with Him.  We are to be His bride.  Just as we are called to give up ourselves, Christ gave up Himself so that we may recieve.  I can praise God for my redemption, but I cannot blame him for my fall.  Because I chose and choose to sin, doesn't mean I can blame Him for giving me that choice.  In order to choose God truly, we must be free not too choose Him as well.  I believe that if the case was presented to justice, and I attempted to justify myself through my own actions, given all the cards I was dealt(good and bad), I would fail to meet the letter of the law, and the law says the punishment is death.  It is only Christ's sacrifice, and His mercy, and His gift that I can place my faith and hope in.                   

 
I have said a mouthful here, and probably spoken my heart concerning this more than given a strict rational interpretion of the views you presented. Still,  I look forward to hearing your thoughts concerning these things.  God Bless.  Bill                 

 

 

[wryan]

Again apologizing if I am a bit off topic, but here are some notes relatating to the difference between God's justice and His mercy.

Main Entry: justice
Function: noun
1 just conduct, management, or treatment; do justice to a book;
2a: the administration of law; received justice in court;
3a:the quality of being fair or just: basis in morality, the right, or the law


My belief is that we are saved not because it is neccesary for justice(or it is a neccesary act of God for Him to remain just), but that justice is "bas[ed] in morality, the right, or the law"; I believe that based upon the law in it's strictest sense(which is the only law God follows) we are condemned by our actions.(The wages of sin is death). For a better understanding of that law we must also look at God's covenant relationship through the first and second covenants and beyond. We can go point by point through them if you'd like to discuss it, but for now I would just like to focus on one attribute of any covenant relationship. Something must be done by both parties to enter into it and keep it. Abraham is a great example of this.

Main Entry: mercy
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural mercies
1a: kind and gentle treatment of someone (as a wrongdoer or opponent) having no right to it. b: a disposition to show mercy
2a: a blessing as an act of divine love;the mercies of God; b: a fortunate happening;it's a mercy the weather cooled off; 3: kindness shown to victims of misfortune;


Now looking at mercy I would see "a blessing as an act of divine love" to be synonomis with "kind and gentle treatment of someone(as a wrongdoer or opponent) having no right to it." In other words God is not merciful to us in order to be just, He is merciful to us within His justice to us who are undeserving.

Let's look at the passage I mentioned in my last post.

JN 21:19 Now this he spake, signifying by what manner of death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

JN 21:20 Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; who also leaned back on his breast at the supper, and said, Lord, who is he that betrayeth thee?

JN 21:21 Peter therefore seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?

JN 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what `is that' to thee? Follow thou me.

JN 21:23 This saying therefore went forth among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, that he should not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what `is that' to thee?

JN 21:24 This is the disciple that beareth witness of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his witness is true.

JN 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that should be written.

I believe Peter was applying to justice here. He was saying why him and not me? To paraphrase he was saying it’s not fair. But God just brushed him off. He said, "What does it matter to thee?" In other words, God made a decision that was within justice. Peter had no case. God made an act of mercy toward John within justice, but this did not mean that He had to do the same act to Peter in order to be just. For God’s mercy is His decision. Whom He gives it to is His decision. How is this fair or just? Because we all deserve death(whatever our views of it’s meaning) because of our actions under the law. A judge may sentence me to the maximum penalty and you to the minimum because of his discretion, and his judgement.

God gives the opportunity to all to be lifted of this judgement under the law. However, the nature of His covenant with us is that we must do something to enter into it. We must accept Jesus. You might ask what of those who didn’t agree to the covenant? I would answer the covenant is not the law, it is an agreement within the law. Whether you accept it or not you are still subject to the law. The covenant lifts your penalty within the law, and it is the only covenant which does so. So if you enter into it you will have it’s benefits, it you do not, you will not. It is not the covenant which condemns us, it is the law. The covenant is an example of mercy within the law. It is mercy given to all who would accept it.

I am quite sure that you probably disagree with just about all that I’ve said here, and that’s ok. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on these things.  My focus is that we must not confuse the covenant with the law. We must not confuse mercy with justice. We must not demand mercy as if it were justice. We must recognize it for what it is. We must be grateful, not acting as if we are rightfully deserving. God Bless you Bro, and I look forward to your thoughts. Bill

 

[armothe]

15th April 2003 at 07:28 PM CopticOrthodox said this in Post #6
Luke 10:18: "I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven"

Rev 12:4: "His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth."

I have to disagree with your application of these verses. Luke 10:18 isn't about Christ witnessing the fall of Lucifer from a holy angel to an evil adversary; but that Satan's power at the time of Christ had been broken and that he was now subject to Jesus’ authority.

Jesus saw in the casting out of the demons a sign that Satan’s throne was toppling. Christ appears to have been speaking metaphorically. He had a vision of the spiritual defeat of Satan which took place at the cross; and the exorcisms, the defeat of Satan’s minions, confirmed his certainty of the coming victory over their master.

And as far as the Revelation 12:4 passage, this is speaking about the "End of Days" - the "Second Coming". Nowhere in this passage does it speak about Lucifer's fall to Satan either pre-creation or soon after. Read the passage for yourself and you'll see that it speaks of Christ's final victory over Satan, which was to happen at the end of the ages.

Rev 12:4-9  His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, so that he might devour her child as soon as it was born. And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rulea all the nations with a rod of iron. But her child was snatched away and taken to God and to his throne; and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, so that there she can be nourished for one thousand two hundred sixty days. And war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon. The dragon and his angels fought back, but they were defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. The great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, proclaiming,
“Now have come the salvation and the power
and the kingdom of our God
and the authority of his Messiah,
for the accuser of our comrades has been thrown down,
who accuses them day and night before our God.
But they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony,"

-A

 

[Michael Mc]

15th April 2003 at 09:08 PM OldShepherd said this in Post #8


Your teaching is the one that is absolutely false! Note, that Jesus said "Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven." What part of "NOT" do we not understand? Does "NOT" mean later?

• 
  Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

<DIR>The Kingdom of Heaven is still a part of the ages, or eons of time. The truth that all mankind will eventually be saved does not imply that all men will be in the Kingdom of God. But all will be reconcilled to God at the fullness of times.

Is God responsible for mankinds sins? Absolutely not!

<DIR>Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;(who’s them?) for God hath shewed it unto them.[Psalm 19]
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (who are they?)
21 Because that, when they(who are they?) knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (who are these guys??)</DIR></DIR>

<DIR>Take a look at vers 17, 18, and then we’ll be able to figure out who these guys’ are.

Rom 1:17-18 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;</DIR>

<DIR>This verse is talking about those who knew the truth, they had it revealed to them. But they decided not to Glorify God as He should be. So their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

(Pro 12:23) A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.</DIR>

 

[Michael Mc]

15th April 2003 at 11:38 PM wryan said this in Post #9




Michael,

I can see your reasoning here but cannot help but feel that this serves as an elaborate way of taking the blame off of ourselves and putting it on God.&nbsp;&nbsp;I see this as saying it&nbsp;was&nbsp;not God's mercy that redeemed us, it was His responsibility.&nbsp; This would take a gift and turn it into something we were owed.&nbsp;&nbsp;I have read where FL has&nbsp;questioned why&nbsp;man today is still born into sin, questioning is it&nbsp;just that we&nbsp;are blamed for Adam and Eve's sin, and this seems to go right along with this.

I do not see this as taking the blame off of ourselves. We never had the blame. The mercy of God is shown in His reconciling us back to Him. Our entire existance has a purpose. And it is Gods mercy that comforts us along the way.

The word says clearly that God feels that He has given man enough for him/her to be held accountable for his/her actions. He has given us enough for us to pay the debts, or recieve the rewards of our own choices. We can choose God, or we can choose ourselves

I admit that I have spent much time on the verses that prove to me that our choices are not our own, But God is the one who gives us the faith to believe in Him. Could you provide the verses you speak of?

I believe that He opens the door to salvation to all, and gives the choice to enter to all. Whether we are dressed for the wedding, is on us. (The main argument I've heard concerning our choice is that it would put the glory on us over God. As I read Ben Johnson once say, as much glory as I would get if you wrapped a present and gave it to me, and I accepted it.)

I would have to see some proof that the door of salvation is opened to all, ( I assume you mean in this lifetime) It is quite clear that not all people have the same opportunity to hear the Gospel. Some have to hear the Gospel 2 or 3 times before their salvation is realized. What if everyone got the same number of chances, wuold they all be saved too?

Man's first sin, even more so than disobedience was pride. It was putting the focus on me, over God. Can you not see this same pride saying it is not my fault I sin, it is not my fault I am condemned. It is God's responsibility to save me, because it's His fault I sin. God would be cruel if he allowed my actions to come to their own fruition.

It is God desire to save me. We are all being created in the image and likeness of Himself. We are the clay in the Great Potters Hands. For His own sake will His end creation be perfect. He will cleanse us for as He has stated in

Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

&nbsp;

God’s justice is in direct relation to His Love. God is Love, that is His essence.

I do not blame God for my faults, for even in my faults and sins, God is able to turn them to blessings.
&nbsp;

You've made some interesting points in your second post.&nbsp; I don't quite agree that everything is in accord with God's Justice, mainly because I have not given it much thought.&nbsp; Thus, I do not understand it completely.&nbsp; I guess I see it like this:&nbsp; God's justice is shown in that He has all of His creation reconciled to Him.&nbsp; For it was Him that subjected creation to vanity. (Rom 8:20)[/size]

That in mind, I guess I can see how all things are in accord with God's Justice, on the grand scheme, like with Peter and John.&nbsp; God chose to be merciful to John now, but who's to say that Peter will not recieve his reward after this life?&nbsp;

I can't agree with the rest though as you seem to say that it is up to man to choose Jesus.&nbsp; There are many scriptures that say that man is unable to choose God, and it is in fact God who draws men to Jesus.&nbsp;
[/color]

Thankyou for your thoughts Bill, I will attempt to make a more detailed explaination of my thoughts in the next couple of days.&nbsp;

God Bless,

Mike

 

[wryan]

Today at 11:03 AM Michael Mc said this in Post #13




I do not see this as taking the blame off of ourselves. We never had the blame. The mercy of God is shown in His reconciling us back to Him. Our entire existance has a purpose. And it is Gods mercy that comforts us along the way.



I admit that I have spent much time on the verses that prove to me that our choices are not our own, But God is the one who gives us the faith to believe in Him. Could you provide the verses you speak of?



I would have to see some proof that the door of salvation is opened to all, ( I assume you mean in this lifetime) It is quite clear that not all people have the same opportunity to hear the Gospel. Some have to hear the Gospel 2 or 3 times before their salvation is realized. What if everyone got the same number of chances, wuold they all be saved too?



It is God desire to save me. We are all being created in the image and likeness of Himself. We are the clay in the Great Potters Hands. For His own sake will His end creation be perfect. He will cleanse us for as He has stated in

Isa 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

&nbsp;

God’s justice is in direct relation to His Love. God is Love, that is His essence.

I do not blame God for my faults, for even in my faults and sins, God is able to turn them to blessings.
&nbsp;

You've made some interesting points in your second post.&nbsp; I don't quite agree that everything is in accord with God's Justice, mainly because I have not given it much thought.&nbsp; Thus, I do not understand it completely.&nbsp; I guess I see it like this:&nbsp; God's justice is shown in that He has all of His creation reconciled to Him.&nbsp; For it was Him that subjected creation to vanity. (Rom 8:20)[/size]

That in mind, I guess I can see how all things are in accord with God's Justice, on the grand scheme, like with Peter and John.&nbsp; God chose to be merciful to John now, but who's to say that Peter will not recieve his reward after this life?&nbsp;

I can't agree with the rest though as you seem to say that it is up to man to choose Jesus.&nbsp; There are many scriptures that say that man is unable to choose God, and it is in fact God who draws men to Jesus.&nbsp;
[/color]

Thankyou for your thoughts Bill, I will attempt to make a more detailed explaination of my thoughts in the next couple of days.&nbsp;

God Bless,

Mike

Hi Mike,

It's good to hear from you and I appreciate you responding. Right now I'd like to bring the focus to free will and predestination because it seems to be the center of all that we've been discussing. For if man indeed had no choice than it would be difficult to argue that he should be made accountable for his actions.

My belief, as I said earlier, is that God opens the door to all to enter into His salvation, and yet some still do not. Now as you pointed out, we must consider men who have never heard the gospel. How can they be held accountable? How can it be said that they were given a chance? You also asked about someone who is saved after hearing the gospel a third time. How can he be considered to have just treatment when there are others who have never heard the gospel even once? These are some of the questions I want to address here and hopefully by the end of this post you’ll have a better understanding of where I’m coming from and just how I got there.

I’ve read your thoughts on Romans 1:17-22 and I’d like to revisit that now. Your view seems to be that in this passage Paul is referring to those who know the truth and still disobey it. I agree with this. However, I believe you are meaning to infer here than not all know the truth. Your point being that only a few have had the truth revealed to them, and are responsible for their actions under it. The others, who have not had the truth revealed, should not, and cannot be judged on the same plain as these who have a clear advantage(in that they had the truth revealed to them).

“This verse is talking about those who knew the truth, they had it revealed to them. But they decided not to Glorify God as He should be. So their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.”

Let’s look at Romans 2:12-15 now.

ROM 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
ROM 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
ROM 2:14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
ROM 2:15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing `them');

One of the things that Paul is referring to here is what many call natural law. God has not only given us the law that we read in the Word, He has also given us the law sewn into our own hearts. “I have put the knowledge of Myself in all man.” Now we must remember some truths that the bible has pointed out.

1. That God judges man not only by his actions, but by his heart.
2. That God says the man who seeks shall find.(knock and the door shall be open)
Now lets look at verses 12 and 13 again.

ROM 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
ROM 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:

What is Paul talking about here? Paul is saying that those who know the law(being either the jew who knew the ten commandments, or later the saint who knows the gospel) and disobeys it shall be held responsible(“shall be judged by the law”). He is also saying that those who do not know, or have no law(the gentile who had never known the ten commandments, or later never heard the gospel) shall also be held responsible(“shall also perish without the law”). In other words, Paul is putting both parties sins on the same plain, for they are both being held accountable for their actions. Isn’t this the very thing we were asking? How can a man who never hears the gospel be judged the same as one who has heard it numerous times? Well what does Paul say?

ROM 2:14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
ROM 2:15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing `them');

Natural law. In other words, I do not believe God condemns the man who has never heard the gospel for not partaking of communion. I believe God searches the man’s heart. Why? God also says seek and you shall find. If this man, who has never heard the gospel, seeks God then he shall also find God. How shall he know what is right and what is wrong, who is God and who is not? His heart shall tell him. “In that they show the works of the law written in their hearts,...” God shall judge a man by his heart, weighed with what has been revealed to him. God judges each man according to what He has given him.

Now don’t mistake what I’m saying here. I’m not saying the old “there are many paths to the same God” at all. There is only one God, and there is only one savior whose name is Jesus. I am saying the man who seeks shall find Jesus and his own heart shall bear witness that He is Lord. However, as Paul is saying, it is not enough that this man know who is Lord, and that his heart knows the Lord’s ways. This man must follow this Lord, and follow these ways.

Now lets look at the original passage you were addressing.

ROM 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;
ROM 1:19 because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
ROM 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, `even' his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
ROM 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
ROM 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
ROM 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
ROM 1:24 Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves:
ROM 1:25 for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

All shall be judged because “... that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.”

I’ve just shown where Paul says both the Jew who has heard the law and the Gentile who has not shall be held accountable, because the law is written on their hearts. Could this be what Paul is referring to when he says “because that which is known of God is manifest in them, for God manifested it unto them.”...? Also, we come to “For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, `even' his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:” God has placed the knowledge of Himself and his law upon our very hearts so that we may all “be without excuse”, and also be able to receive His son and the glory that He brings.

Now we come to the question of how can a man be said to choose God at all, let alone follow His ways when the Lord makes that very choice possible?( continued in the next post)

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 12:22 AM Michael Mc said this in Post #12

The Kingdom of Heaven is still a part of the ages, or eons of time. The truth that all mankind will eventually be saved does not imply that all men will be in the Kingdom of God. But all will be reconcilled to God at the fullness of times.

Where is all this written?

 

[OldShepherd]

Today at 12:22 AM Michael Mc said this in Post #12

<DIR>The Kingdom of Heaven is still a part of the ages, or eons of time. The truth that all mankind will eventually be saved does not imply that all men will be in the Kingdom of God. But all will be reconcilled to God at the fullness of times.


<DIR>Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;(who’s them?)[/font] for God hath shewed it unto them.[Psalm 19]
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (who are they?)
21 Because that, when they(who are they?) knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (who are these guys??)</DIR>[/color]</DIR>

<DIR>Take a look at vers 17, 18, and then we’ll be able to figure out who these guys’ are.

Rom 1:17-18 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;</DIR>

<DIR>This verse is talking about those who knew the truth, they had it revealed to them. But they decided not to Glorify God as He should be. So their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

And wrong once again by deliberately misreading the scripture. Also note the passage states "The just" shall live by faith and goes on to describe, NOT the just but the unjust.

• 
  17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
  18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
  19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; F6 for God hath shewed it unto them.
  20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so F7 that they are without excuse:[Note, NOT just some things, but all things. OS]
  21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
  22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
  23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
  24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
  25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
  26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections]: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
  27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
  28 And even as they did not like to retain F8 God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
  29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
  30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
  31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
  32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

You need to read this along with Psalm 19. And the bottom line is THEY are without excuse! God is NOT responsible for the sins of mankind! Since you attempted to identify they, notice NOT one time did Paul attempt to put the blame on God, but, THEY sinned, THEY commited, THEY did, THEY became, etc.

(Pro 12:23) A prudent man concealeth knowledge: but the heart of fools proclaimeth foolishness.

Perhaps you may want to apply this scripture to yourself.