Satan's Downfall (Beginning)

[LogosRhema]

In the beginning, before Satan's downfall to sin... let me cover the idea of how sin works with us then I'll wrap to my question.

Sin for us as humans comes from temptations, and we all know that men are bent to sin. We can see that the serpent, or satan, plays a role in these temptations back when Eve took the apple. That principle, I'm sure, still works today, Satan (or demons) tempt us to feed off our sin.

Now if the serpent didn't exist and the temptation (or door) was never shown to Eve... we'd more than likely would never created that bent towards sin because we wouldn't know to do such a thing.

Back to Satan. What tempted Satan with such pride and blasphemy? Is there an evil greater than Satan that got his attention. Otherwise, how would he had known to be proud and start a mutiny against God?

It's kind of like physically if there's only one door to go through, you go that route. Then someone comes along and shows you another door, and you have a choice between the two, but that choice would not have come unless someone came along to show you this other door.

What tempted Lucifer?

 

[hlaltimus]

"What tempted Lucifer?"

This is one that I almost can't wait until heaven in order to find out more of the "how?" of Lucifer's fall than the "what?" of the fall. I do know one very decisive reason for his temptation though: Lucifer was not a common angel...He was an angelic "power" and as a power he possessed, inherently and independently, a very great degree of power which power did not depend upon God for it's supply unlike common angels who had to rely upon an outside source of power in order to have power. We humans are constructed by this common fashion for the present: We do have power from God in our lives, but it is requisite that we receive that power regularly ,("As thy days, so shall thy strength be",) and at numerous intervals or we would never have it at all. We are like living water pots who daily expend our supply of fluid and must resort to a divine well or we will forever be empty. Lucifer didn't have this dependancy stipulation in his construction power wise and this was one of the great reasons why he rebelled against the Creator...He didn't need the Lord in point of power and still doesn't! Now this inherent power of Lucifer's is still an imparted state which state will no doubt be someday revoked by the Creator, but for the current he still enjoys, in a perverted way, this independent resource of power. How this is miraculously accomplished, I haven't the faintest idea. The reasoning of the rebelling angels was that they could part with the Creator because they had some of those angelic powers join in with them in their ill fated venture and this made the temptation seem feasible since they didn't need, as they foolishly reasoned, the Lord any more for strength. They were only very superficially correct but eternally wrong.

Nobody makes a fool out of God...Nobody.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

*subscribing

will let you all have your fun before spoiling it with The Answer.

one hint for now: Lucifer did not go zero to 80 in 4 seconds flat. Meaning He did not go straight from innocent joyful angel serving God to murderous, lying, rebellious, prideful, bitter, twisted, blaspheming mutineer Satan overnight, nor even in ONE SINGLE STEP. It began somewhere, and it did not begin as it wound up. And where it began bes exceedingly important toward comprehending where it will all finally end.

 

[icedtea]

subscribing.
I would hope you can support your idea with scripture, otherwise, it becomes conjecture. Yes?

 

[squint]

In the beginning, before Satan's downfall to sin... let me cover the idea of how sin works with us then I'll wrap to my question.

False presumption # 1. Satan was not some "holy angel" gone afoul by a series of bad decisions.

Jesus tells us in John 8:44 that Satan was a murderer from the beginning.

Though Ezekiel say Lucifer was perfect in his ways, the ways of the Devil are still the ways of a perfect DEVIL.

In short, Satan was made a RESISTOR to God by God from the beginning. Satan did not "make himself" what he is via "bad choice" though that story does sell quite well in some sects.

Sin for us as humans comes from temptations, and we all know that men are bent to sin.

Here is a real gem for ya if you can take it.

Paul called the sin indwelling his flesh NO LONGER I twice in Romans 7: 17&21 stating also in the same chapter that EVIL WAS PRESENT with him.

Yet Paul was NEITHER of those things.

Sin indwelling us all makes all of us sinners "because" that same sin indwells the flesh of all mankind (except Jesus of course, as Satan had NOTHING "in Him) so yes, THAT SIN indwelling is OUR SIN as it abides IN OUR FLESH...but that STILL does not make the sin indwelling us all the SAME AS us or as any other flesh it inhabits.

The devil may be a little closer than what you think. Paul openly admitted that a messenger of Satan abode upon his flesh. We as Christians should be able to look this fact in the face and deal with the facts.

The Apostle John also tells us that "he who commits sin is OF THE DEVIL." Jesus also spoke to both Satan and DEVILS IN MANKIND...so the "presence" of Satan and his messengers was clearly and openly revealed to be WITHIN mankind, that is "in our flesh and minds. Christians are no exception to this fact, even if they are deceived by that same "presence" into "thinking" it is not so.

We cannot say we have "no sin" as a present tense condition or the Truth is not in us. (ref. 1 John 1:8.)

We can see that the serpent, or satan, plays a role in these temptations back when Eve took the apple. That principle, I'm sure, still works today, Satan (or demons) tempt us to feed off our sin.

It's easy to "blame and accuse" Adam and Eve for making a bad choice or two. For example Adam was obviously made by God to be "SUBJECT TO BOTH DECEPTION and DEATH." So you can blame and accuse Adam all you want, but the facts will tell me that God Is certainly Great enough to have made Adam "better" than that or NOT subject to those things.

The fact in these matters is that God made ALL THINGS including SATAN and EVIL and it is GOD who can and will eventually utterly destroy those things and entities.

So even "those things" are presently "serving" Gods Ultimate Purposes. There is no way to avoid this fact. If there exists any "thing" God is directly implicated "somehow."

IF God Is Great Enough to overcome ALL of those things and their workings, then only HE is worthy and He Is.

Now if the serpent didn't exist and the temptation (or door) was never shown to Eve... we'd more than likely would never created that bent towards sin because we wouldn't know to do such a thing.

That is of course at least partially true. But keep in mind being "subject" to those things does not make "us" as mankind the 'SAME AS' what we are "subject to."

Romans 11:32 tells us that it was GOD who bound ALL to disobedience SO THAT He can have "mercy" upon those same ALL so God obviously has His Reasons.

Back to Satan. What tempted Satan with such pride and blasphemy? Is there an evil greater than Satan that got his attention. Otherwise, how would he had known to be proud and start a mutiny against God?

see previous. Satan was "made" a resistor. Whenever Gods Word is 'sown' Satan comes immediately to RESIST and to STEAL that same Word. That is how God made Satan.

So "believers" are particularly 'subjected to' the workings of Satan because that "resistor" is both aroused and empowered by that same WORD.

It's kind of like physically if there's only one door to go through, you go that route. Then someone comes along and shows you another door, and you have a choice between the two, but that choice would not have come unless someone came along to show you this other door.

What tempted Lucifer?

One cannot be "perfect" if they do not SEPARATE and DEPART from the workers of iniquity that are "in our flesh."

If you have no DIVISION you will have only the CONFUSION that Satan brings.

enjoy!

squint

 

[LogosRhema]

Good response squint, but Biblically speaking, before Lucifer's fall he was actually a very powerful Angel. He led the worship of the angels, which is interesting to see secular music having such a big tug on our world today, anywho.... The passage you referred to John 8:44 "from the beginning". From what beginning the Bible could be referring to the beginning of the world with eve or from the start. From reading this piece it is my assumption from the beginning because Satan DID lie at the beginning of man.

 

[squint]

Good response squint, but Biblically speaking, before Lucifer's fall he was actually a very powerful Angel. He led the worship of the angels, which is interesting to see secular music having such a big tug on our world today, anywho.... The passage you referred to John 8:44 "from the beginning". From what beginning the Bible could be referring to the beginning of the world with eve or from the start. From reading this piece it is my assumption from the beginning because Satan DID lie at the beginning of man.

Satan is NEVER said to have once been "holy."

If Jesus said Satan was a MURDERER from the beginning then THAT'S what Satan was, not what someone else thinks.

A perfect devil was and remains A PERFECT DEVIL.

 

[LogosRhema]

Satan is NEVER said to have once been "holy."

If Jesus said Satan was a MURDERER from the beginning then THAT'S what Satan was, not what someone else thinks.

A perfect devil was and remains A PERFECT DEVIL.

Problem with that is the context of what beginning? God does not create evil. Satan at one time was tempted to become evil. Evil is the manifestation that takes after disobedience to God, hence sin. Satan was a VERY powerful angel when He was one, which is why he is such a difficulty now today. At one point he was good, otherwise you are suggesting that God creates things that are evil, which is false, God makes things which are good that later turn evil due to the problem of CHOICE!

 

[conconhoo]

amen.
God created free will; in which it is our choice to choose where we go.
God didn't create Satan EVIL in the beginning; although he must have known..
being someone who knows, you would have destroyed your creation now wouldnt you?
no; that is why our God is so sovereign and righteous..

he delights in giving mercy and giving love.
It would have been injust and unfair to kill everybody that sins or offends God..

for God is a righeous and fair God


so hense he thinks of a better way.. to save all his children God Bless

 

[squint]

Problem with that is the context of what beginning?

Uh, no. The problem is that Satan was NEVER presented to us as having been HOLY.

God does not create evil.

Of course God created evil or it would not "exist."

Isaiah 45:7 from Gods Own lips:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Satan at one time was tempted to become evil.

Well, all ya got's ta do is present a single scripture that says Satan was ONCE HOLY...here's a clue. There is no such scripture.

Evil is the manifestation that takes after disobedience to God, hence sin. Satan was a VERY powerful angel when He was one, which is why he is such a difficulty now today. At one point he was good, otherwise you are suggesting that God creates things that are evil, which is false, God makes things which are good that later turn evil due to the problem of CHOICE!

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

If you find an "exception" to this fact, let me know.

I have no problem with God's creation and use of evil. The Old Testament is filled with God performing RETRIBUTIVE evil.

The facts are that God did and continues to render EVIL to EVIL and that EVIL is in the flesh of mankind.

Yet all mankind are Gods offspring...(Acts 17:23-29)

Paul taught that in the SAME LUMP there is both a vessel of HONOR and a vessel of WRATH and God deals DIFFERENTLY with these vessels, and raises ONE or the OTHER according to His Will.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

amen.
God created free will; in which it is our choice to choose where we go.
God didn't create Satan EVIL in the beginning; although he must have known..
being someone who knows, you would have destroyed your creation now wouldnt you?
no; that is why our God is so sovereign and righteous..

he delights in giving mercy and giving love.
It would have been injust and unfair to kill everybody that sins or offends God..

for God is a righeous and fair God


so hense he thinks of a better way.. to save all his children God Bless

"Freewill" is provably false and "freewill" is a logical fallacy.

Mankind are not saved by their "wills."

 

[conconhoo]

is it not men's choice to fall?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Satan is NEVER said to have once been "holy."

If Jesus said Satan was a MURDERER from the beginning then THAT'S what Satan was, not what someone else thinks.

A perfect devil was and remains A PERFECT DEVIL.

Problem with that is the context of what beginning? God does not create evil. Satan at one time was tempted to become evil. Evil is the manifestation that takes after disobedience to God, hence sin. Satan was a VERY powerful angel when He was one, which is why he is such a difficulty now today. At one point he was good, otherwise you are suggesting that God creates things that are evil, which is false, God makes things which are good that later turn evil due to the problem of CHOICE!

Not to mention that squint's take on it does not resolve the matter; it simply shifts us (if we adopted it) from one set of troubling questions to another set of (possibly even worse) troubling questions. In other words, Squint's "answer" does not ANSWER the questions raised in the OP. It simply proposes asking a different set of equally thorny and sticky ones.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

"Freewill" is provably false and "freewill" is a logical fallacy.

Mankind are not saved by their "wills."

Now HERE bes something on which we can agree.

 

[squint]

is it not men's choice to fall?

IF mankind were the only parties to their "wills" you'd have a point, but God has most obviously "interacted" with the will's of mankind and so has the devil.

Since there is no way to pinpoint who in this grouping of 3 is actually involved there is no way we as "believers" can simply and only BLAME AND ACCUSE mankind when there are so obviously other players to their wills.

All the "willpower" in the world of mankind cannot rid the flesh of the presence of indwelling sin or it's effects.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Awful lot of really bad theology blows out of that logical fallacy too.....

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

All the "willpower" in the world of mankind cannot rid the flesh of the presence of indwelling sin or it's effects.

Again, another statement meriting total

 

[squint]

Not to mention that squint's take on it does not resolve the matter; it simply shifts us (if we adopted it) from one set of troubling questions to another set of (possibly even worse) troubling questions. In other words, Squint's "answer" does not ANSWER the questions raised in the OP. It simply proposes asking a different set of equally thorny and sticky ones.

Oh? How is that exactly?

When critique is made it is both polite and profitable to provide specifics with same critique and to exchange on THAT basis...specific critique.

 

[LogosRhema]

Moriah you are supposed to be on my side! I kid. Yea, I've heard the free will "fallacy". Still came down to us all (in this discussion) made the choice to follow after Christ rather than satan, that's about the true extent of our free will or following our flesh, which is essentially filled with lies sowed by satan.

Does bother me though, good scripture. God creates and does evil? Is there an integrity line we must understand when it comes to God?

 

[squint]

Does bother me though, good scripture. God creates and does evil? Is there an integrity line we must understand when it comes to God?

IF God created all things as scriptures present AND IF God created evil which is specifically stated many times in many ways in scriptures...THEN there is no way around the facts in these matters. (an if/then logic format)

So suppose with a bit O' logic for a moment that God does "resist" and measure "retributive evil" toward that sin indwelling our flesh (including our minds) that Paul termed "NO LONGER I" which is in fact of the DEVIL, yet also actually does LOVE all of mankind.

When we divide the scriptures in this manner the Word does make Perfect 'sense.'

So let's take this understanding to a specific example or two:

We know from scriptures that God is NOT The Author of "confusion."

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace-

OK, but that same statement would NOT apply here:

Genesis 11:
8 So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city.
9 That is why it was called Babel —because there the LORD confused the language of the whole world.

Now in this understanding we can understand how it is that God can deal with one entity class, MANKIND as GODS OFFSPRING all in ONE WAY...

Yet with the other entity class that is found in the flesh and minds of those same ALL of mankind, God can and DOES deal entirely differently with them.

And this term in the text is known as 'the whole world.' The whole world meaning these two entity classes bound together currently.

Do you not see how this same CONFUSION is measured upon the CHURCHES today? WHY is it do you think that we have hundreds of different denominations? That's RIGHT...God still CONFUSES the communications lines between these groupings as reflected even currently IN REALITY...and among BELIEVERS...and that is exactly what God MEANS to do with the resistors that we cannot deny are in our flesh.

When we divide the 'whole world' when viewing this current world we can see where Jesus' statement here is TRUE:

Matthew 13:38
The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one

And again here:

John 18:36
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

Or again here for example:

Matthew 13:


28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The applicability of these facts can be born out in many directions and by nearly innumerable examples.

Another example: When Jesus spoke to the Pharisees he was talking to CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL...

...Take Jesus at His Word. He actually WAS speaking to the children of the DEVIL in the flesh and minds of those PHARISEES...

Yet we also know from scriptures that ALL OF ISRAEL are Gods children, Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6 for example...

Satan spoke through Peter. Satan even ENTERED Judas...Jesus cast out a veritable HORDE of demonic entities from MANKIND...so this is and remains an irrefutable FACT...Satan and devils exist with mankind.

This is the condition of all mankind and the "whole world."

Jesus came to bring DIVISION and A SWORD...and His Words cut quite cleanly upon the simplicity of these lines...AND eliminates ALL confusions...for His children...

The children of the devil however will RESIST this understanding to their dying breath...just as God Intended...

In this way I know my brothers and sisters in The Lord...and I also discern 'our enemies.'


enjoy!

squint