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"Satanic" Apparitions
- Thread starter Liberius
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Satan cannot take the form of Our Lady. He can take the form of Jesus Crucified apparently, but He can't take the form of Our Lady. I read that somewhere.
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jukesk9
Dixie Whistlin' Papist
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Exactly. Especially the Jesus Prayer from Fatima: "O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy." The fine folks at That Other Board are just convinced that this prayer is from Satan......PeterPaul said:
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There can be deceptions . . I had a book in my hands that claimed genuine apparitions of Mary and Jesus. However, after reading a little, it was pretty clear that they were not.
This is one reasons the Church is slow in approiving apparitions. They want to make sure it is real, not a result of fraud or a false, demonic, apparition.
Faitma and Lourdes have both been approved by the Church after careful study.
How can you refute those who claim they are demonic? If they want to believe they are, I am not sure how you can convince them that they are wrong. .
I think you have to find the root cause of such a belief . .
Usually, at the root of such an idea is the belief that the communion of saints is a false teaching . .and that those who have died, Mary included, cannot ever communicate with us in any way shape or form. . . This is VERY strong in Protestantism . .
So I would say the beginning place is to show them their underlying false assumptions . . and deal with those first, otherwise I don't see how you can progress to showing them that these apparitions are not demonic, because, based on their false assumptions, this is the only logical option they they can come to. But since the underlying assumption is false . . that there is no such thing as the communion of saints . . then their conclusion is faulty as well.
Peace in Him!
This is one reasons the Church is slow in approiving apparitions. They want to make sure it is real, not a result of fraud or a false, demonic, apparition.
Faitma and Lourdes have both been approved by the Church after careful study.
How can you refute those who claim they are demonic? If they want to believe they are, I am not sure how you can convince them that they are wrong. .
I think you have to find the root cause of such a belief . .
Usually, at the root of such an idea is the belief that the communion of saints is a false teaching . .and that those who have died, Mary included, cannot ever communicate with us in any way shape or form. . . This is VERY strong in Protestantism . .
So I would say the beginning place is to show them their underlying false assumptions . . and deal with those first, otherwise I don't see how you can progress to showing them that these apparitions are not demonic, because, based on their false assumptions, this is the only logical option they they can come to. But since the underlying assumption is false . . that there is no such thing as the communion of saints . . then their conclusion is faulty as well.
Peace in Him!
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This is an abomination of such a great lady like mary! maybe one day they'll realize that what they're doing is wrong. There is an emnity between MaRY and Satan, They're mortal enemies. Surely, Satan won't be playing like Mary and call sinners to conversion, Isn't it? Think about it logically and see.
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Rising_Suns
'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'
I agree. Even discussing it can potentially plant rotten seeds that we do not need. There is absolutely no need to respond to these claims; the Church is clear that they are from God, so they are from God. That is how we refute those claims...mervs said:
Please pray for those who so easily doubt and look for reasons to hate while forgetting all the reasons to love.
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Rising_Sun and Mervs . . I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from . . but please realize that Satan does take such tactics . . I have read them for myself . . . I do not remember the name of the book, but it sounded so Christian, callling people to conversion, to Jesus . . but what happens is then people begin following the prophet, not Jesus . . it is very seductive . .the things that were in that book were terrible, but hidden in amongst what sounded right and good.
We can't simply say to them that Satan would never try to do such a thing; that is going to go over like a lead ballon and all they have to do is present a book like the one I read to prove you wrong. I can tell you, having come from such a background, this is absolutely how such would be received.
I used to believe the Rosary was demonic!!
When I seriously began searching for the truth, I was flipping through the radio stations in the car one night and came upon a Catholic station . . they were playing the Rosary . . I was so convinced that it was demonic I turned it off as fast as I could in fear I was inviting something into my car . ..
But you know what? I couldn't keep it off, so I found myself turning it back on a few minutes later . . I was truly terrified that I was doing the wrong thing . . but I could not deny I felt the Lord's leading to listen to it . .
I had a big problem with the idea of Mary and the Saints because my mother, who converted to Orthodoxy to marry my father, had a big problem, and thought it was wrong, and perhaps demonic.
God used that radio station, and the many, many times I heard the rosary prayed on it, and explanations given by people on that station about the rosary, to finally, after about 7 months of this, show me the reality of the communion of saints.
But the fear is real . . I sympathize with them greatly. They are not trying to be mean. They are really afraid of this. They do not understand. And it DOES need to be answered.
If that radio station had not been there .. if those people had not explained it, . . if I had not had access to that over a long period of time, I do not know that I would be here today one of you.
Do you know what the mission of that radio station is? To promote the Rosary.
Satan has a counterfit for everything God has. Satan can come as an angel of light to deceive. Could he deceive a true follower who has a true devotion to Mary into thinking he was Mary? I highly doubt it.
But could he deceive someone who is not into believing they were receiving visions of Mary and messages from her? I certain DO!
PLEASE do not brush their worries and concerns off! Pleae address them charitably and with compassion. Please understand why they are saying this and help them understand the wrong assumptions they hold and what the truth is if possible.
I was in their shoes just 2-3 years ago . . see what God can do!
Peace in Him!
We can't simply say to them that Satan would never try to do such a thing; that is going to go over like a lead ballon and all they have to do is present a book like the one I read to prove you wrong. I can tell you, having come from such a background, this is absolutely how such would be received.
I used to believe the Rosary was demonic!!
When I seriously began searching for the truth, I was flipping through the radio stations in the car one night and came upon a Catholic station . . they were playing the Rosary . . I was so convinced that it was demonic I turned it off as fast as I could in fear I was inviting something into my car . ..
But you know what? I couldn't keep it off, so I found myself turning it back on a few minutes later . . I was truly terrified that I was doing the wrong thing . . but I could not deny I felt the Lord's leading to listen to it . .
I had a big problem with the idea of Mary and the Saints because my mother, who converted to Orthodoxy to marry my father, had a big problem, and thought it was wrong, and perhaps demonic.
God used that radio station, and the many, many times I heard the rosary prayed on it, and explanations given by people on that station about the rosary, to finally, after about 7 months of this, show me the reality of the communion of saints.
But the fear is real . . I sympathize with them greatly. They are not trying to be mean. They are really afraid of this. They do not understand. And it DOES need to be answered.
If that radio station had not been there .. if those people had not explained it, . . if I had not had access to that over a long period of time, I do not know that I would be here today one of you.
Do you know what the mission of that radio station is? To promote the Rosary.
Satan has a counterfit for everything God has. Satan can come as an angel of light to deceive. Could he deceive a true follower who has a true devotion to Mary into thinking he was Mary? I highly doubt it.
But could he deceive someone who is not into believing they were receiving visions of Mary and messages from her? I certain DO!
PLEASE do not brush their worries and concerns off! Pleae address them charitably and with compassion. Please understand why they are saying this and help them understand the wrong assumptions they hold and what the truth is if possible.
I was in their shoes just 2-3 years ago . . see what God can do!
Peace in Him!
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Rising_Suns
'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'
therese,
I believe more can be resolved if each of us take 5 minutes to pray than 20 pages of discussion on this thread, as words will do little for a person who views the Catholic Church as Satanic. That was my point; prayer is our greatest weapon, for we must pick our battles carefully.
Although I do not disagree with what you said.
I believe more can be resolved if each of us take 5 minutes to pray than 20 pages of discussion on this thread, as words will do little for a person who views the Catholic Church as Satanic. That was my point; prayer is our greatest weapon, for we must pick our battles carefully.
Although I do not disagree with what you said.
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For some fundamentalists to admit the approved Marian apparitions are actually from God would contradict much of their theology. Therefore they have no choice. They have to say "The apparitions are from the devil."
But this is NOT the measure against which warnings from God should be judged. Otherwise no-one would accept a warning that displeased them. But such treatment of unwelcome messengers has happened before.
Matthew 23:37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often have I wanted to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Those who accuse messages they don't like of coming from the devil don't seem to realize that this was precisely the charge that the pharisees made against Jesus - that His healing power came from the devil.
In answer Jesus says this:
Mark3 25-26 "If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come."
In all the approved Marian appearances She calls for prayer and repentance, and for people to follow Jesus. As Jesus teaches us, Satan cannot do this.
How else are we told in the Bible to discern whether things are of God or not?
1 Cor 12.3: You know when you were pagans somehow or other you were influenced by and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says "Jesus be cursed". and no one can say Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."
At Guadeloupe Mary proclaimed Her Son, Jesus, as Lord. At Fatima, She gave the Children a new prayer: "Oh my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are most in need."
The Apparitions of Mary proclaim Jesus as Lord, they urge repentance, obedience to God, and prayer.
So using the scriptural reference for discernment, we prove that these apparitions of Mary cannot be from Satan. They are of God.
But this is NOT the measure against which warnings from God should be judged. Otherwise no-one would accept a warning that displeased them. But such treatment of unwelcome messengers has happened before.
Matthew 23:37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often have I wanted to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Those who accuse messages they don't like of coming from the devil don't seem to realize that this was precisely the charge that the pharisees made against Jesus - that His healing power came from the devil.
In answer Jesus says this:
Mark3 25-26 "If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come."
In all the approved Marian appearances She calls for prayer and repentance, and for people to follow Jesus. As Jesus teaches us, Satan cannot do this.
How else are we told in the Bible to discern whether things are of God or not?
1 Cor 12.3: You know when you were pagans somehow or other you were influenced by and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says "Jesus be cursed". and no one can say Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."
At Guadeloupe Mary proclaimed Her Son, Jesus, as Lord. At Fatima, She gave the Children a new prayer: "Oh my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are most in need."
The Apparitions of Mary proclaim Jesus as Lord, they urge repentance, obedience to God, and prayer.
So using the scriptural reference for discernment, we prove that these apparitions of Mary cannot be from Satan. They are of God.
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MariaRegina
Well-Known Member
AngelicJedi said:
I post this in fellowship - as an area where both Latin Catholics and Orthodox Catholic agree:
If Satan can take the form of Christ, he can take the shape of the Blessed Virgin Mary. He is the great shape-shifter, the great deceiver.
Read THE DIALOGUES OF ST. CATHERINE OF SIENA, a Dominican
Saint and Doctor of the Latin Church
St. Catherine told our Lord that she could tell if an apparition was from the devil. The next day the devil appeared in the form of Christ and deceived her. Then she learned that she must use discernment. St. Catherine was told to test all apparitions by using holy water, requesting that they pray with her, and making the Sign of the Cross.
The devil flees at the Sign of the Cross.
Notice how Our Lady of Fatima requested that the children pray with her. This the devil will not do.
Hope this helps.
Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth
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I would suggest not saying this if you are trying to refute something to a Protestant. They already think we Worship Mary. I met someone yesterday who honestly believed Catholic talk only to Mary, never to Jesus. Saying this will not refute anything, it will just get you attacked!AngelicJedi said:
I agree with everyone else, the Apparitions have brought people to Jesus, they have healed people. Ask them to prove she IS Satan. Chances are, they cant prove she is any more that you can prove she isnt.
Most of the amputations Protestants demand us to prove can not be proven either way. That is what fait his about, believing with you cant prove it.
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Yes, and when you ask them to prove their position, then you will uncover the underlying false assumptions they are holding to . . and you can then work on correcting those.Tibby said:
Then, when those false assumptions are gone, they will be much more open to understanding what this is all about. Peace in Him!
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www.childrenofmedjugorje.com is a good site.
Also, the devil flees at the sound of the Hail Mary. So...I think Medjugorje must be real but I was very upset around the time of Sep 11th when after it happened Mary actually mentioned it. I thought that was odd, considering the amount of people that must die every day and that she would know about. That did strike me a little odd.
In the Western World we have a tendency to focus on the tragedies that happen to us in our countries but Mary would well be aware of the other atrocities in the world so, for her to mention Sep 11th, was very odd to me. But I would sooner believe it than disbelieve it.
Also, the devil flees at the sound of the Hail Mary. So...I think Medjugorje must be real but I was very upset around the time of Sep 11th when after it happened Mary actually mentioned it. I thought that was odd, considering the amount of people that must die every day and that she would know about. That did strike me a little odd.
In the Western World we have a tendency to focus on the tragedies that happen to us in our countries but Mary would well be aware of the other atrocities in the world so, for her to mention Sep 11th, was very odd to me. But I would sooner believe it than disbelieve it.
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Rising_Suns
'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'
This reminds me of a story I once read about a Saint (I can't remember which one it was) who had a vision of heaven, and when the Saint entered heaven she asked for the blessed virgin Mary. An angel appeared and answered that she is not here, but down on earth comforting the souls of the suffering. And indeed, sharing in our suffering.
We thank you most blessed virgin Mary. Pray for us.
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