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I still have not found a comprehensive outline on how neither the Karaites, nor the Samaritans celebrate Pesach.
Couldn't you apply those same inferences to Yahshua's encounters with the Pharisees? Who has not fallen short?
I didn't write the Christian Testament - I was merely pointing out that he disagreed with the Samaritan way of life and worship, as that account makes clear. He also disagreed with other people as we all know; that is pretty much a given. Were I to list all with whom he disagreed it would make a very long thread!
To what do you think his reference to living water refers?
I think that it's a reference to the Ruach HaKodesh.
in a sense yes,I think that it's a reference to the Ruach HaKodesh.
Living water, and similar descriptions re. water, are often metaphors for the Law
as in the case in question.
Anti-Law Christians have read into it, incorrectly, that it can only be the Spirit, and so that has become the norm, over time. The context here points to it being the Law which, given the debate about Samaritan Law vs Judaic Law on this thread, makes it self evident.
in a sense yes,
the haqodosh of many waters being pure and flowing from the single well of evening wisdom, then being drawn by those who have been without such till the Call.
Blessing Always.
Isaiah 55 comes to mind. The Torah as water is a very common theme in Judaism, it always has been. The Talmud is full of it. The same theme didn't appear in Christianity by accident, after all.Can you show me one verse that makes this irrefutably clear?
Here you have presented an unsupported claim as fact. Can you prove it as fact?
The subject of any points of the law had not come up when Yahshua made this statement:
(CLV) Jn 4:14
yet whoever may be drinking of the water which I shall be giving him, shall under no circumstances be thirsting for the eon, but the water which I shall be giving him will become in him a spring of water, welling up into life eonian."
Let's look at this verse carefully.
the water which I shall be giving him will become in him a spring of water, welling up into life eonian
Let's try it your way first.
the [LAW] which I shall be giving him will become in him a spring of [LAW], welling up into life eonian
YHWH already gave us the law through Moshe. Yahshua fulfilled that law. He said that nothing would pas from it. Why would he say that he shall be giving (future tense) us the law? Does the law well up in us into eternal life? Yahshua was filled with the Ruach without measure. Yahshua, shortly before his departure, said that YHWH would send the Ruach. What is a spring? It is a portal from which water pours out onto the earth. Are you saying that the law that Yahshua gave us, will become in us a spring of law?
Now let's look at it the way I see it.
the [life-giving breath] which I shall be giving him will become in him a spring of [life-giving breath], welling up into life eonian
This makes clear sense to me.
It's not Samaritan law; and it's not Judaic law. It's Yahweh's law. What's clear is that neither the Jews nor Samaritans fully understood it.
(CLV) Jn 4:21
Jesus is saying to her, "Believe Me, woman, that, coming is an hour when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem shall you be worshiping the Father.
(CLV) Jn 4:23
But coming is the hour, and now is, when the true worshipers will be worshiping the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also is seeking such to be worshiping Him.
Notice that Yahshua didn't respond according to that false dichotomy.
The biblical text circulated in antiquity in different forms, many of which are now known to us, especially after the scrolls from the Dead Sea area have been found in recent decades. It is now clear that in the last pre-Christian centuries many different text forms were in use in Palestine
http://www.emanueltov.info/docs/varia/67.Proto-SamaritanTexts.2.pdf?v=1.0
Isaiah 55 comes to mind. The Torah as water is a very common theme in Judaism, it always has been. The Talmud is full of it. The same theme didn't appear in Christianity by accident, after all.
You haven't demonstrated that Isaiah 55 equates living water to the law.
I haven't made the argument that water is not a common theme within the Torah. The Talmud is commentary. It can be useful; but often it is of misguided authors. Sometimes it's downright wicked.
Now, concerning what Yahshua was trying to convey to the Samaritan woman:
If you were faced with a quandary of either trusting the commentary of the Talmud, or trusting the commentary of one of Yahshua's hand picked Apostles, and a personal witness, as to Yahshua's message; which would you choose?
(CLV) Jn 7:37
Now on the last, the great day of the festival, Jesus stood and cries, saying, "If anyone should be thirsting, let him come to Me and drink.
(CLV) Jn 7:38
He who is believing in Me, according as the scripture said, out of his bowel shall gush rivers of living water."
(CLV) Jn 7:39
Now this He said concerning the spirit which those believing in Him were about to get. For not as yet was holy spirit given, for Jesus is not as yet glorified.
How do you reconcile this testimony with your position?
I'm not a Christian, so I'm no that interested in reconciliation of the unrelated texts. As for the Talmud. If I were a Christian, I would treat it as a valuable secondary source. Jesus ( there's no such name as Yahshua, but that's a different conversation) did not live in a vacuum, he lived in a Jewish society and as a Christian, you do not have any secondary sources from his time that could fill in the background narrative. Water- living, nourishing, etc. is a common theme for the people who have a trip through the dessert in the center of their existence. Not to mention their existence in a very, very dry environment.You haven't demonstrated that Isaiah 55 equates living water to the law.
The Talmud is commentary. It can be useful; but often it is of misguided authors. Sometimes it's downright wicked.
Now, concerning what Yahshua was trying to convey to the Samaritan woman:
If you were faced with a quandary of either trusting the commentary of the Talmud, or trusting the commentary of one of Yahshua's hand picked Apostles, and a personal witness, as to Yahshua's message; which would you choose?
(CLV) Jn 7:37
Now on the last, the great day of the festival, Jesus stood and cries, saying, "If anyone should be thirsting, let him come to Me and drink.
(CLV) Jn 7:38
He who is believing in Me, according as the scripture said, out of his bowel shall gush rivers of living water."
(CLV) Jn 7:39
Now this He said concerning the spirit which those believing in Him were about to get. For not as yet was holy spirit given, for Jesus is not as yet glorified.
How do you reconcile this testimony with your position?
I haven't seen this theme in Christianity; but then again, I wouldn't place the commentary of a Christian, over that of Yahshua and his hand picked apostles.
i suppose not.No results found for "flowing from the single well of evening wisdom".
"flowing from the single well of evening wisdom" - Google Search
You are in error - to disprove the comments made about the woman at the well, you use a totally different text, out of context
your argument depends on a verse that is debatable as to its authenticity
That is disingenuous, at best.
You are simply attempting to ignore the scriptures and beliefs that Yeshua et al had to hand.
Christian Testament was not available to the people, in his day, because the gospels were penned many years after Yeshua's death, and after Paul penned many of his letters.
The gospels were written from memory, by and large, under the guidance of the same G_d as found in the Tanach under whose guidance the Tanach was written.
Danny ski is perfectly correct to quote the understandings of the Tanach as handed down over the years in Judaism
it was, after all, Yeshua's Bible, too!
If you look through the Christian Testament, you will see many references to the Tanach, and Yeshua upholding the teaching found in the Sh'ma, among other Tanach teachings
You make the classic Christian error of trying to Christianise the Tanach.
This is a Messianic Judaism Forum and, as such, the Tanach, anruth.d its teachings, in various media, are common place here, as is the Christian Testament, and its teachings; we uphold the Word of G_d from Genesis to Revelation.
It is not helpful on this Forum to attack those teachings with words like 'wicked' or of similar intent.
Please be aware, if you are not already, that there are teachings in Christianity via commentaries and other writings, relating to the whole Bible, that are clearly wrong.
I'm not a Christian, so I'm no that interested in reconciliation of the unrelated texts. As for the Talmud. If I were a Christian, I would treat it as a valuable secondary source.
Let me help you put this into perspective. Yahshua is speaking both times of "living water." I don't believe that he clearly tells one person that it means one thing, and then implies to another person that it means something else
New testament clues.
Yeshua sat at a well while His disciples went into town to buy food. A Samaritan woman came to draw water and Yeshua asked her for a drink. Now this is a setup to meet without the disciples interference. The Samaritan woman was quite shocked because Yeshua was a Jew, and Jews simply hated the Samaritans. Of course, she had no idea who Yeshua was and asked Him how He could ask her for water since He was a Jew. This lays the groundwork to introduce her to "living water" which is being discussed in this thread.
John 4:10 If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.
Notice that He does not say that He is the living water, but that He would give living water to her, and when she received it, she would never thirst again. Of course, that does not tell us what the living water is. For that, we must go to another passage of Scripture.
Yeshua is in the temple surrounded by a throng of worshippers. Some believe this is at the time of the feast of dedication which also included a water ceremony.
John 7:37-39 If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scriptures said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified”
So the Holy Spirit is the living waters. Yet if the Holy Spirit does not speak Torah it is not the Holy Spirit but some other spirit.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
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