Samael and satan

[JESUS<3sYOU]

When did satan become what he is, the enemy?

 

[ProScribe]

The Fall of Lucifer.

 

[JESUS<3sYOU]

But when?

 

[Andrew21091]

I don't think anyone has ever put a time line to when he fell. I would say that he fell some time before the creation of man.

 

[JESUS<3sYOU]

I don't think anyone has ever put a time line to when he fell.

That's hard to believe, but that's not what I asked about. I was asking when it happened.

I would say that he fell some time before the creation of man.

I don't see a reason to assume that.

 

[Andrew21091]

I don't see a reason to assume that.

Why not? It makes sense. Who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden to eat from the tree? It seems that he was already hanging about before the fall of man. I would say he fell either before or slightly after the creation of man (but not very long after I would say). I don't think any text specifies when he fell with the exception of the Qu'ran. Satan in Islamic beliefs was actually a Djinn (who is referred to as Iblis) who lived among the angels and when Allah created man, Allah ordered all to bow down to Adam but he refused arguing that he was made out of fire and was not going to bow to clay so Allah banished him (Qu'ran 7:11-13). Islam places the fall of Iblis/Lucifer to happen right after God created Adam. I think that makes sense since it would have either had to have happened before or right after the creation of Adam.

 

[JESUS<3sYOU]

Thanks for participating in the thread and I hope I'm not seeming unreasonable, but I've vowed to not debate anything. I didn't come here to debate, at least not primarily. The thing is I'm genuinely interested in this question although I'm not interested in taking guesses. I could take a guess, I can think for myself and I already did, but I try to take repsonsibility for what I'm saying even if it's just a forum where anyone can air an opinion. I was hoping maybe someone knew the Orthodox answer to this question and would appoint me to a source. My spiritual father is on his way back to my area, however, and I may have an opportunity to ask him about this sometime soon.

Best wishes,

Niko.

 

[Andrew21091]

Well, I don't think the Church has an official teaching on when Satan fell from heaven.

 

[buzuxi02]

Why not? It makes sense. Who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden to eat from the tree? It seems that he was already hanging about before the fall of man. I would say he fell either before or slightly after the creation of man (but not very long after I would say). I don't think any text specifies when he fell with the exception of the Qu'ran. Satan in Islamic beliefs was actually a Djinn (who is referred to as Iblis) who lived among the angels and when Allah created man, Allah ordered all to bow down to Adam but he refused arguing that he was made out of fire and was not going to bow to clay so Allah banished him (Qu'ran 7:11-13). Islam places the fall of Iblis/Lucifer to happen right after God created Adam. I think that makes sense since it would have either had to have happened before or right after the creation of Adam.

Just to add a few points. The word Iblis is the shortened arab word of the greek diabolos, simply drop the letters D and A .

The koranic story is taken from the christian apocryphal book called, "The Questions of Bartholomew" written atleast a century or more before the birth of Muhammed. (Contrary to muslim claims about the koran, outside of the biographical and historical information, most of the koran is borrowed material from christianity, alot from the syriac tradition, much from the jewish midrash and even elements from zoroastrianism. Much of the content in the koran borders on plaigerism

This explains why in Islam theres a controversy as to why Satan is made of fire and not light. In islam angels are made of light but the jinn/demons are made of fire. In greek the terms fire and light are interchangeable and can even be used as synonyms. The arab translator basically translated the apocryphal text literally adding some confusion to islamic angelology.

Here is the relevant excerpt from that apocryphal writing:

52 But the devil said: Suffer me, and I will tell thee how I was cast down into this place and how the Lord did make man. 53 I was going to and fro in the world, and God said unto Michael: Bring me a clod from the four corners of the earth, and water out of the four rivers of paradise. And when Michael brought them God formed Adam in the regions of the east, and shaped the clod which was shapeless, and stretched sinews and veins upon it and established it with Joints; and he worshipped him, himself for his own sake first, because he was the image of God, therefore he worshipped him. 54 And when I came from the ends of the earth Michael said: Worship thou the image of God, which he hath made according to his likeness. But I said: I am fire of fire, I was the first angel formed, and shall worship clay and matter? 55 And Michael saith to me: Worship, lest God be wroth with thee. But I said to him: God will not be wroth with me; but I will set my throne over against his throne, and I will be as he is. Then was God wroth with me and cast me down, having commanded the windows of heaven to be opened. 56 And when I was cast down, he asked also the six hundred that were under me, if they would worship: but they said: Like as we have seen the first angel do, neither will we worship him that is less than ourselves. Then were the six hundred also cast down by him with me. 57 And when we were cast down upon the earth we were senseless for forty years, and when the sun shone forth seven times brighter than fire, suddenly I awaked; and I looked about and saw the six hundred that were under me senseless. 58 And I awaked my son Salpsan and took him to counsel how I might deceive the man on whose account I was cast out of the heavens. 59 And thus did I contrive it. I took a vial in mine hand and scraped the sweat from off my breast and the hair of mine armpits, and washed myself in the springs of the waters whence the four rivers flow out, and Eve drank of it and desire came upon her: for if she had not drunk of that water I should not have been able to deceive her. 60 Then Bartholomew commanded him to go into hell.

 

[Andrew21091]

Ok, thanks. I've heard of the text but never knew it spoke of that story.

The koranic story is taken from the christian apocryphal book called, "The Questions of Bartholomew" written atleast a century or more before the birth of Muhammed. (Contrary to muslim claims about the koran, outside of the biographical and historical information, most of the koran is borrowed material from christianity, alot from the syriac tradition, much from the jewish midrash and even elements from zoroastrianism. Much of the content in the koran borders on plaigerism

I agree that Islam definitely is a mix of different beliefs. Islam is a mixture of Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and already established pre-Islamic Arab beliefs (the belief in the Djinn for instance). It makes sense though that it would be a mix since Muhammad was a merchant and traveled extensively in the camel caravans, so he would have encountered many different beliefs. I wouldn't really call it plagiarism though since he saw that some sort of unifying monotheistic religion was needed in Arabia so he blended elements from different beliefs he was exposed to which made sense to him and the others around him.

 

[JESUS<3sYOU]

Interesting. I had the opportunity to talk to some people about it recently; in fact the subject had already been brought up anyway, and it seemed like a good time to ask. A priest said that the teaching in that apocryphal book already mentioned in this thread is not what the Orthodox Church teaches. He said that it was however what Islam teaches. He said that unless his memory was failing him it was Dionysios Areopagita who wrote what the Orthodox Church teaches about Samael's fall. Unfortunately, the priest said very little apart from it being a "rebellion". Someone else then started to talk, and the conversation took a different course.

 

[buzuxi02]

Correct, the apocryphal text is not official Orthodox teaching. Dionysios Areopagite (pseudonym) did indeed write about the choir of angels and their ranking, in a work called Celestial Heirarchy. I dont really remember what specifically he said about satan, I will have to look it up