Sam Bacchiocchi vs. Dale Ratzlaff in Sabbath debate

[Jimlarmore]

You know this whole 10 Cs, Laws and Sabbath debate would be nonexistent if it were not for an interpetation of strung together Bible texts that claim the whole outcome of good and evil will come down to a day and then the claim by those with the "right" day will be vindicated and blessed while the goats on the left " will go away to eternal punishment".

Now I would propose a solution: Consider what Jesus said the "sheep" will actually be rewarded for, put down the law and working together to take on poverty. Take on the lost and the homeless. Step into the world around you and work for goodness. I would suggest that in the parable Jesus told in Matthew 25:31-46 you won't even find a hint of the Sabbath. Tht does not say there is no value in the Sabbath but in at least this story it is a nonplayer. Neither is the bulk of the law. Jesus summed up the Law by quoting the Law(Torah). Love for God and love for man. Then repeatedly though out His ministry showed that to love God is shown and lived through love for those around us.

It's not just the right day. It's not just the ten commandments. It's what the Bible says and a having a relationship with the only one who can save us from our sins. You could be the world's best philanthropist. Love all mankind and feed every hungry soul in the world. Take on all poverty and defeat it but loose your eternal life in the end. John 3:16 says it all, we must have a relationship with Christ.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

John 3:16 says it all, we must have a relationship with Christ.

Actually it says that by believing (faith in Christ) we HAVE eternal life, NOW!, present tense! The 'relationship' is that the Spirit of Christ LIVES IN us. We are 'known' by God.

 

[ricker]

The wording in the Bible like we see in Col 2:14 makes it very clear what law Paul is speaking of. The issue becomes very clear when it is thoughly researched. When the 7th day Sabbath is being referred to the Bible nearly always says " the Lords day" or "God's holy day". When ceremonial sabbaths are being referred to the Bible usually says something like "your day/s". The reason for this is these days were added because of sin and pointed to the sin bearer which is Christ. The Sabbath was instituted before sin ever came into the world.

The jot and tiddle issue? Well think it's clear that there is nothing fulfilled in the ten commandments so they are still very much in effect. The Lord says until they are all fulfilled . The only part of God's laws that have been fulfilled are those that pointed to His sacrifice on the cross.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

HI Jim! It can be said that the Sabbath commandment, given as a sign to the Israelites, pointed back to God resting on and blessing the seventh day at creation, and looking forward to Christ's completed sacrifice for us on the cross.
Hebrews 4 seems to indicate a fulfillment of a rest we now have in Jesus's completed work that is "today", as opposed to weekly.

4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."
6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts." 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.

I will admit this passage does not unequivocally say the seventh day Sabbath is no longer to be observed, but it certainly equates Gods initial rest with Israel's rest, and the seventh day rest, and the rest that remains for us from our works through Jesus. This to me sets up the distinct possibilty the Sabbath was fulfilled by Christ, especially taking into account the lack of new testament admonitions or rules on the matter. Just want to get your feedback on the issue.
God bless! Ricker

 

[Jimlarmore]

HI Jim! It can be said that the Sabbath commandment, given as a sign to the Israelites, pointed back to God resting on and blessing the seventh day at creation, and looking forward to Christ's completed sacrifice for us on the cross.
Hebrews 4 seems to indicate a fulfillment of a rest we now have in Jesus's completed work that is "today", as opposed to weekly.



I will admit this passage does not unequivocally say the seventh day Sabbath is no longer to be observed, but it certainly equates Gods initial rest with Israel's rest, and the seventh day rest, and the rest that remains for us from our works through Jesus. This to me sets up the distinct possibilty the Sabbath was fulfilled by Christ, especially taking into account the lack of new testament admonitions or rules on the matter. Just want to get your feedback on the issue.
God bless! Ricker

You know I have studied the texts in Heb 4 several times and have read a lot of commentary on it. To me it neither fully endorses nor fully rejects the neccessity of observing the 7th day Sabbath. What we read about is God resting and setting the Sabbath rest aside for His people. Then it goes on to describe the rest of God and how we should labor to enter into that rest today, which is the rest from works for salvation. I think the correct 7th day Sabbath observance/celebration is the model that we are to pattern our rest in God after.

That of course would not mean it's no longer a neccessary thing to observe just because we enter God's rest from works every day. We are still commanded to labor six days which can at times take away our spiritual rest in God. Sabbath is just as neccessary as it ever was. God knew what He was doing when He made it for us.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[ricker]

You know I have studied the texts in Heb 4 several times and have read a lot of commentary on it. To me it neither fully endorses nor fully rejects the neccessity of observing the 7th day Sabbath. What we read about is God resting and setting the Sabbath rest aside for His people. Then it goes on to describe the rest of God and how we should labor to enter into that rest today, which is the rest from works for salvation. I think the correct 7th day Sabbath observance/celebration is the model that we are to pattern our rest in God after.

That of course would not mean it's no longer a neccessary thing to observe just because we enter God's rest from works every day. We are still commanded to labor six days which can at times take away our spiritual rest in God. Sabbath is just as neccessary as it ever was. God knew what He was doing when He made it for us.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

So are you saying that when this verse says "today" it is not contrasting or replacing the seventh day?
I'll quote this again:

4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."
6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today

To me this kinda has a progression from the seventh day to "today". Have any of the commentaries you have read on this been from a non-sabbatarian perspective? I haven't studied this in-depth as you say you have. Thanks! Ricker

 

[Loveaboveall]

The important thing to remember in regards to Hebrews 4 is that the author places the sabbaths orgins at Creation. All of this talk is moot if one accepts the fact that the sabbath was created on the seventh day of the creation week. It was not just for jews, it was for every created being in this world. It was not a type because it doesn't have an antitype, for to have an antitype would mean there was something better coming that it foreshadows. No, it was given to us when all things were perfect and good.

 

[freeindeed2]

The important thing to remember in regards to Hebrews 4 is that the author places the sabbaths orgins at Creation. All of this talk is moot if one accepts the fact that the sabbath was created on the seventh day of the creation week. It was not just for jews, it was for every created being in this world. It was not a type because it doesn't have an antitype, for to have an antitype would mean there was something better coming that it foreshadows. No, it was given to us when all things were perfect and good.

It doesn't say that in the text. There's NO indication that man was commanded to do or not do anything in relation to the day God rested from his work of creating. There's NO indication that God rested again 7 days later. And there's NO indication of anyone resting/keeping/observing the 7th day until Exodus. And there's NO Sabbath mentioned until it was being introduced to Israel after God led them out of slavery in Egypt.

To say otherwise is to make assumptions and read into the text what is not present.

 

[Loveaboveall]

It doesn't say that in the text. There's NO indication that man was commanded to do or not do anything in relation to the day God rested from his work of creating. There's NO indication that God rested again 7 days later. And there's NO indication of anyone resting/keeping/observing the 7th day until Exodus. And there's NO Sabbath mentioned until it was being introduced to Israel after God led them out of slavery in Egypt.

To say otherwise is to make assumptions and read into the text what is not present.

You may believe as you wish

 

[freeindeed2]

You may believe as you wish

And so may you. But if you're going to accept the ACTUAL words from the Bible it does not support what you've chosen to believe in.

 

[Loveaboveall]

And so may you. But if you're going to accept the ACTUAL words from the Bible it does not support what you've chosen to believe in.

Because no ACTUAL laws were written of before the flood does that mean there were no laws? Even though the it clearly says that Abraham kept God's laws, statutes and Judgements? Maybe you could tell me what it was that Abram was obeying...

 

[Jimlarmore]

So are you saying that when this verse says "today" it is not contrasting or replacing the seventh day?
I'll quote this again:

4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."
6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today

To me this kinda has a progression from the seventh day to "today". Have any of the commentaries you have read on this been from a non-sabbatarian perspective? I haven't studied this in-depth as you say you have. Thanks! Ricker

I see it like this when the Bible says "Today" is the day of salvation . In this case "Today" we need to cease from attempting to save ourselves by our own works and enter the rest of God. Salvation is by faith thru grace and not of ourselves lest any should boast. This in no way means the 7th day Sabbath rest is done away with or fulfilled in this rest of God. Salvation has always been by faith thru grace even in the old covenant times. The Sabbath was given before sin as was marriage. It is still as valid and neccessary as marriage is today. Both are holy institutions ordained by God before sin entered the world.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[ricker]

I see it like this when the Bible says "Today" is the day of salvation . In this case "Today" we need to cease from attempting to save ourselves by our own works and enter the rest of God. Salvation is by faith thru grace and not of ourselves lest any should boast. This in no way means the 7th day Sabbath rest is done away with or fulfilled in this rest of God. Salvation has always been by faith thru grace even in the old covenant times. The Sabbath was given before sin as was marriage. It is still as valid and neccessary as marriage is today. Both are holy institutions ordained by God before sin entered the world.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

I guess this passage in Hebrews could be mentioning the seventh day rest as a reference and then going on to say we should enter God's rest from our works "today".
Thanks and God bless you Jim! Ricker

 

[NightEternal]

Bump. Good discussion.

 

[TrustAndObey]

"Today" in those verses directly corresponds with some verses in Psalms 95 where God says not to harden our hearts against His message.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Hebrews 4 is referring back to Psalms 95.

4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The exact same language:

Psalms 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.

10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It [is] a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known My ways:

11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

 

[TrustAndObey]

Hebrews 4:3 uses the same language as well:

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.