Salvos Stuck in the Past?

[chaplainjared]

Lets face it, that salvation army used to be a massive, radical christian movement at the forefront of evangelism, and a movement who was 'with the times' and new how to reach the lost souls.

I think its sad to see what we have become. So stuck in the old ways of doing things. Sure, that worked 50 - 100 years ago, but it is now 2005, and i once herd a captain say "going to the salvation army for sunday worship has become like going through a time warp every saturday night in our sleep, we wake up sunday morning and all of a sudden we have gone back 50 years in time".....
Come on people, i think its safe to say that IN GENERAL, the salvation army is dead and dying... If our corps (churches) keep diminishing in numbers then in 20 years we wont have a church left, and of course, if the corp dies, the services the corp offers to the community (family support etc) is also made extinct.
I read on the Salvation army's australian web site yesterday that last financial year the salvation army made a LOSS of 5 MILLION DOLLARS. How long can we sustain this?
We need to make our services relevant to TODAYS community, to Draw the lost into a relationship with Jesus. and if we are honest, a larger corp means a larger income to serve the community like we love to do, and what we are good at....

Have i opened a hornets nest here????

 

[Andy Broadley]

I thinkl this should neatly take care of any concerns about us dying







Statistics
From 2005 Year Book

Countries where The Salvation Army is at work

A country in which the Army serves is defined in two ways:

• (i) Politically
  (ii) Where the General has given approval to the work, thus officially recognising it, ensuring it has legal identity and a Deed Poll is published to acknowledge this.

As far as political status is concerned, for the Army’s purposes, three categories are recognised:

• (a) Independent countries, eg USA and New Zealand;
  (b) Internally independent political entities which are under the protection of another country in matters of defence and foreign affairs, eg The Færoes, Isle of Man, Puerto Rico;
  (c) Colonies and other dependent political units, eg Bermuda, French Guiana, Guam, Guernsey, Jersey, Virgin Islands.

Administrative subdivisions of a country such as Wales and Scotland in the UK are not recognised as separate countries for this purpose. The countries fulfilling the quoted criteria, with the date on which the work was officially recognised in brackets, are as follows:

Angola.....(1985)
Antigua.....(1903)
Argentina.....(1890)
Australia.....(1881)
Austria.....(1927)

Bahamas.....(1931)
Bangladesh.....(1970)
Barbados.....(1898)
Belgium.....(1889)
Belize.....(1915)
Bermuda.....(1896)
Bolivia.....(1920)
Botswana.....(1997)
Brazil.....(1922)

Canada.....(1882)
Chile.....(1909)
China.....(1916)
Colombia.....(1985)
Congo (Brazzaville) 1937)
Congo (Kinshasa).....(1934)
Costa Rica.....(1907 and 1975)
Cuba.....(1918)
Czech Republic.....(1919 and 1990)

Denmark.....(1887)
Dominican Republic
.....(1995)

Ecuador.....(1985)
El Salvador.....(1989)
Estonia.....(1927 and 1996)
Færoes, The.....(1924)
Fiji.....(1973)
Finland.....(1889)
France.....(1881)
French Guiana.....(1980)

Georgia.....(1993)
Germany.....(1886)
Ghana.....(1922)
Grenada.....(1902)
Guam.....(1994)
Guatemala.....(1976)
Guernsey.....(1879)
Guyana.....(1895)Haiti.....(1950)
Honduras.....(2000)
Hong Kong.....(1930)
Hungary.....(1924 and 1990)

Iceland.....(1895)
India.....(1882)
Indonesia.....(1894)
Ireland, Republic of (Eire).....(1880)
Isle of Man.....(1883)
Italy.....(1887)

Jamaica.....(1887)
Japan.....(1895)
Jersey.....(1879)

Kenya.....(1921)
Korea.....(1908)

Latvia.....(1923 and 1990)
Lesotho.....(1969)
Liberia.....(1988)

Macau (2000)
Malawi.....(1967)
Malaysia.....(1938)
Marshall Islands.....(1985)
Mexico.....(1937)
Micronesia.....(1993)

Moldova.....(1994)
Mozambique.....(1916)
Myanmar.....(1915)
Netherlands, The.....(1887)
New Zealand.....(1883)
Nigeria.....(1920)
Norway.....(1888)

Pakistan.....(1883)
Panama.....(1904)
Papua New Guinea.....(1956)
Paraguay.....(1910)
Peru.....(1910)
Philippines, The.....(1937)
Portugal.....(1971)
Puerto Rico.....(1962)Romania.....(1999)
Russia.....(1913 and 1991)
Rwanda.....(1996)

St Christopher Nevis (St Kitts).....(1904)
St Helena.....(1884)
St Lucia.....(1902)
St Maarten.....(1999)
St Vincent.....(1903)
Singapore.....(1935)
South Africa.....(1883)
Spain.....(1971)
Sri Lanka.....(1883)
Suriname.....(1926)
Swaziland.....(1960)
Sweden.....(1882)
Switzerland.....(1882)

Taiwan.....(1965)
Tanzania.....(1933)
Tonga.....(1986)
Trinidad and Tobago.....(1901)

Uganda.....(1931)
Ukraine.....(1993)
United Kingdom.....(1865)
United States of
America.....(1880)
Uruguay.....(1890)

Venezuela.....(1972)
Virgin Islands.....(1917)

Zambia.....(1922)
Zimbabwe.....(1891)
International Statistics (as at 1 January 2004)

Countries and other territories where SA serves .....109
Languages used in SA work .....175
Corps, outposts, societies, new plants and recovery churches .....15,241
Goodwill centres .....221
Officers .....25,792
Active .....17,199
Retired .....8,593
Auxiliary-captains .....216
Lieutenants .....401
Envoys/sergeants, full-time .....901
Cadets .....1,207
Employees .....107,369
Senior soldiers .....1,034,975
Adherents .....187,622
Junior soldiers .....366,900
Corps cadets .....33,398
Senior band musicians .....26,642
Senior songsters .....90,282
Other senior musical group members .....13,907
Senior and young people’s local officers .....120,585
Women’s Ministries (all groups) – members .....627,378
League of mercy – members .....88,217
SAMFmembers .....8,257
Over-60 clubs – members .....100,831
Men’s fellowships – members .....49,909
Young people’s bands – members .....13,400
Young people’s singing companies – members .....76,755
Other young people’s music groups – members .....34,641
Sunday schools – members .....616,326
Junior youth groups (scouts, guides, etc, and clubs) – members .....163,215
Senior youth groups – members .....69,897
Corps-based community development programmes .....764
Beneficiaries/clients .....1,166,947
Thrift stores/charity shops (corps/territorial) .....1,536
Recycling centres .....17
​

Social Programme

ResidentialHostels for homeless and transient .....615
Capacity .....31,769
Emergency lodges .....233
Capacity .....10,333
Children’s homes .....206
Capacity .....9,377
Homes for the elderly .....175
Capacity .....12,036
Homes for the disabled .....49
Capacity .....1,620
Homes for the blind .....6
Capacity .....272
Remand and probation homes .....61
Capacity .....936
Homes for street children .....26
Capacity .....585
Mother and baby homes .....47
Capacity .....1,536
Training centres for families .....14
Capacity .....252
Care homes for vulnerable people .....57 Capacity .....800
Women’s and men’s refuge centres .....114 Capacity .....2,336
Other residential care homes/hostels .....98
Capacity .....5,098
Day Care Community centres .....460
Early childhood education
centres .....227
Capacity .....11,533
Day centres for the elderly .....155
Capacity .....3,473
Play groups .....163
Capacity .....4,682
Day centre for the hearing impaired .....2
Capacity .....60
Day centres for street children .....6
Capacity .....164
Day nurseries .....205
Capacity .....15,500
Drop-in centres for youth .....185
Other day care centres .....247 .....
Capacity .....5,948

Addiction Dependency

Non-residential programmes .....71
Capacity .....2,383
Residential programmes .....209
Capacity .....12,513
Harbour Light programmes .....40
Capacity .....3,951
Other services for those with addictions .....44
Capacity .....3,716

Service to the Armed Forces

Clubs and canteens .....21
Mobile units for service personnel .....27
Chaplains .....22

Emergency Disaster Response

Disaster rehabilitation schemes .....438
Participants .....2,996
Refugee programmes – host country .....4
Participants .....4,006
Other response programmes .....7
Participants .....118,261

Services to the Community

Prisoners visited .....308,814
Prisoners helped on discharge .....172,836
Police courts – people helped .....240,919
Missing persons – applications .....20,110
number traced .....9,074
Night patrol/anti-suicide –
number helped .....102,416
Community youth programmes .....206
Beneficiaries .....50,286
Employment bureaux – applications .....396,538 initial referrals .....100,865
Counselling – people helped .....503,371
General relief – people helped .....16,268,855
Emergency relief (fire, flood,
etc) – people helped .....2,133,696
Emergency mobile units .....1,333
Feeding Centres .....1,123
Restaurants and cafes .....68
Thrift stores/charity shops (social) .....1,327
Apartments for elderly .....1,756
Capacity .....6,182
Hostels for students, workers, etc .....67
Capacity .....4,202
Land settlements
(SA villages, farms etc) .....11
Capacity .....1,638
Social Services summer camps .....98
Participants .....12,939
Other services to the community
(unspecified) .....192
Beneficiaries .....18,112,605

Health Programme

General hospitals .....21
Capacity .....2,583
Maternity hospitals .....7
Capacity .....191
Other specialist hospitals .....7
Capacity .....363
Specialist clinics .....32 .....
Capacity .....7,610
General clinics/health centres .....149
Capacity .....416
Mobile clinics/community health posts .....45
Number of inpatients .....146,876
Number of outpatients .....920,872
Number of doctors/medics .....2,306
Invalid/convalescent homes .....4 .....
Capacity .....225
Health education programmes
(HIV/Aids, etc) .....193
Beneficiaries .....148,126
Day care programmes .....3

Education Programme

Kindergarten/sub primary .....579
Primary schools .....1,020
Upper primary and middle schools .....66
Secondary and high schools .....156
Vocational training schools/centres .....76
Number of pupils .....446,327
Number of teachers .....14,153
Schools for the blind
(included in above totals) .....9
Schools for the disabled
(included in above totals) .....8
Colleges, universities, staff training and development study and distance learning centres .....24

 

[InTheFlame]

Ironically, considering I'm so lacking in affection for the traditional paraphenalia... I don't think the SA is anywhere near dying. I admit God has been kind to me by placing me in 3 successive non-trad, progressive corps, so maybe that's why my outlook is so positive But I think that while maybe the deadwood is starting to fall, there seem to be passionate people everywhere - and that's a good sign.

I'll share with you a passage I felt led to share the last time someone expressed pessimism to me about the future of the army...

The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry.He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" I said, "O Sovereign LORD , you alone know."

Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD ! This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath enter you, and you will come to life. I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD .' "

So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.' " So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet-a vast army.

Then he said to me: "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.' Therefore prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: O my people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them.
Ezekial 37:1-12

Pray. If need be, personally ask every Salvo you know what you can pray for, for them... and pray. It's the best all-round remedy I've come across

 

[Abiel]

Yes we need to be upto date. But I am dubious about the phrase 'relevant worship'. I hear that a lot from the alove stuff. We will never be able to keep up if we persue modern taste all the time. And what's relevant for my 6 year old, is different for a 16 year old, 37 year old, 86 year old.

What does God want? What is 'relevant worship' to him? Worship is always towards the creator, not the creature.

 

[chickette]

I partly agree, partly disagree. Many corps are 'dying out' while many others are growing. There are only a couple of corps in my area with youth groups. The rest are very traditionally focused, which can be an issue at times and other times wont be....It differs for each corp I think.

Mmm....Did this make any sense?

 

[chaplainjared]

This is a little bothering -
Officers .....25,792
Active .....17,199
Retired .....8,593

If half our officers are retired, then are we an aging army?, and is an aging army in decline?

"relevant worship"
I believe relevant worship is worship that draws the unchurched. Surely this HAS to be our priority. Our job is to make influence people into a knowledge and understanding of Jesus Christ right???
Then regardless of what I like, or what you like, we need to make worship meaningfull to the lost out there!
I feel that many corps are stuck in the past a little, and use worship music that only people over 50yrs of age would like. What is the point of this?
Surely if you have to cater for both young and old then do that....YES it probably is stepping out of the comfort zone, but progress needs to be made.
play a bit of both....music that would relate to the older generation and the young!
Or maybe use different instruments and a slightly different tune to older songs. where is the improvisation in alot of our corps?
General william booth once said "why should the devil have all the good songs"....
well, in the eyes of many people (most under 30 - 35) the devil has got all the good music back again, because we just want to keep singing all the same ones from the past....
im sure that many older people, and some younger people would disagree with me, but im sure that the majority out there would say that we need to progress.
The Salvation Army used to be at the forefront of worship, writing new songs etc. are we anymore?
In my corp, we do quite a bit of half old half new worship and it works pretty well, when i first started at my corp it was all old songs, and i was one of 3 others between 12 - 24 yrs of age, while the average age of the corp was 60....
Since the introduction of more modern music, we have grown significantly. We now have at least 20 young people come to our services, while the older generation is still attending faithfully also.

The simple word is "relevance"
Dare i say a huge majority of people aged 14 - 35 would not find the old stlye of worship relavant to them, If we did all 'song book songs' and 'brass band' my mother would not be attending my church with me thats for sure.

 

[Andy Broadley]

This is a little bothering -
Officers .....25,792
Active .....17,199
Retired .....8,593

If half our officers are retired, then are we an aging army?, and is an aging army in decline?

"relevant worship"
I believe relevant worship is worship that draws the unchurched. Surely this HAS to be our priority. Our job is to make influence people into a knowledge and understanding of Jesus Christ right???
Then regardless of what I like, or what you like, we need to make worship meaningfull to the lost out there!
I feel that many corps are stuck in the past a little, and use worship music that only people over 50yrs of age would like. What is the point of this?
Surely if you have to cater for both young and old then do that....YES it probably is stepping out of the comfort zone, but progress needs to be made.
play a bit of both....music that would relate to the older generation and the young!
Or maybe use different instruments and a slightly different tune to older songs. where is the improvisation in alot of our corps?
General william booth once said "why should the devil have all the good songs"....
well, in the eyes of many people (most under 30 - 35) the devil has got all the good music back again, because we just want to keep singing all the same ones from the past....
im sure that many older people, and some younger people would disagree with me, but im sure that the majority out there would say that we need to progress.
The Salvation Army used to be at the forefront of worship, writing new songs etc. are we anymore?
In my corp, we do quite a bit of half old half new worship and it works pretty well, when i first started at my corp it was all old songs, and i was one of 3 others between 12 - 24 yrs of age, while the average age of the corp was 60....
Since the introduction of more modern music, we have grown significantly. We now have at least 20 young people come to our services, while the older generation is still attending faithfully also.

The simple word is "relevance"
Dare i say a huge majority of people aged 14 - 35 would not find the old stlye of worship relavant to them, If we did all 'song book songs' and 'brass band' my mother would not be attending my church with me thats for sure.

Whilst I would agree with much od this in principal, we must also take care to ensure that we don't chuck out the baby with the bathwater. The Army needs to move forwards, of this there is no doubt. But the best way of doing this is with a mix of old and new. As far as 'relevence' goes, my 6 year old, who is heavily into Veggie tales etc. was recently seen to be jumping up and down on his chair in an evening meeting, clapping loudly to "I'll go in the strength of the Lord". So 'traditional' Army worship is by no means lost on young people or those without an Army background

 

[chickette]

The Salvation Army used to be at the forefront of worship, writing new songs etc. are we anymore?

I don't know if u have heard of Soteria Music Ministries but they have written some new songs that are excellent which is on their album 'I'll Fight.' There is also an older song that they have put to different music and it's definately one of my favourites.

 

[chaplainjared]

I have heard of Soteria Music Ministries and they are fantastic. However they are the only salvo group writing modern, relevant and very 'salvo' praise and worship that i know of. Does anyone know of any other groups that are? I would like to find out and give it a listen.

 

[Warren Peace]

This is a little bothering -
Officers .....25,792
Active .....17,199
Retired .....8,593

If half our officers are retired, then are we an aging army?, and is an aging army in decline?

Not to split hairs, but 8,593 is not half of 25,792... it's almost exactly a third.

I can tell you one thing: Here in Canada many of the "retired" officers are still pretty active. They may not be in active officer roles, but they are active in the local corps and as representatives of the Salvation Army as a whole. This is encouraging.

Don't be fooled by statistics... we are alive and well! Maybe not in the same capacity as we used to be, but there are many candidates going into training in the next couple of years here in Canada, including my wife and I.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of people who attend Salvation Army corps and are not listed as soldiers or adherents. They likely don't show up in the numbers, but they still tithe.

Blessings...

 

[InTheFlame]

Jared and chickette,

I haven't heard of Soteria, we sing Unlimited by Michelle Kay a fair bit... plus there are a couple of people in our corps who have either put psalms to music, or re-tuned (hehe) old salvo songs.

 

[chickette]

Jared and chickette,

I haven't heard of Soteria, we sing Unlimited by Michelle Kay a fair bit... plus there are a couple of people in our corps who have either put psalms to music, or re-tuned (hehe) old salvo songs.

Yeh, at least one of the new ones is an old song put to new music. Don't know if any of you have heard the song "Tell The World"?

But I haven't heard of Michelle Kay. Where is she from?

 

[InTheFlame]

Michelle's from Sydney or Melbourne... I'm guessing Sydney though.

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

Yeah Sydney... I think she's in the 'modern' songsters...

Sasch

 

[Abiel]

you know, after the last few weeks I have had, I reckon there are some ways we arent old fashioned enough. Being a Christian is supposed to make a difference. That 'holiness' thing. I wonder if we are a holy people anymore.

 

[InTheFlame]

*hugggggggggggggggggggg* to Abiel.

Guys n gals, I put a link to ArmyBarmy's worship music demos - worth a look! Esp. if you want new stuff that's still 'army'... hehe.

 

[Andy Broadley]

you know, after the last few weeks I have had, I reckon there are some ways we arent old fashioned enough. Being a Christian is supposed to make a difference. That 'holiness' thing. I wonder if we are a holy people anymore.

Probably unrelated but there was a time when the 'Sunday morning family service' was called the 'Holiness meeting'.

 

[elm0]

It still is in some corps from what I hear.

I can't speak for any other SA corps, but our leadership team is constantly reviewing/refining things, be it church services or community services. I have been happy to see the leaders making changes where they think changes are needed. Not everyone has been happy with the changes, but that's the thing with change, it usually upsets someone. I think that's why a lot of churches, not just SA, choose to keep doing things the way they always have.

 

[tadpole29]

Change is good within every church not just TSA. While it seems the number of officers retired is a lot, they are mostly still active, and also look at all the local officers. The officer is supposed to be the leader, but they can't do it alone, and without help from the leaders and CSM, YPSM, etc. they would be burnt out. So I don't think we need to worry about how many officers there are just yet. Besides next year there will be 2 more in training, my wife and I

 

[chaplainjared]

It is just so frustrating!!!
A very wise preacher once said, "staying where you are is just as bad as moving backwards"....
I suppose every corp is different, but in mine all the "old" people are COMPLETLY AFRAID of change....and it is going to destroy our corp, and those in similar situations.
We have tried to softly implemement new things into our corp, and all we get is OLD people having a cry and complaining that they dont like it, becasue its not the way things have been done in the past!
Dare i say this is completly selfish...
Last week we had a "childrens ministries weekend" when the corp embrases the young people and we focus the whole service on them with childrens songs etc....BUT GUESS WHAT....The old people COMPLAINED, and some refused to even come along, or join in. CAN ANYONE SEE MY FRUSTRATIONS? Yesterday we even tried to involve an older lady in our "church news" program that we are trying to get going and guess what? she refused!, i guess my frustrations for creating this topic came from my own corp! I am at the end of my rope. I love the salvation army and what it stands for and what it does, but i will go so far as to say i completly dislike my corp because they simply wont move! What ever happened to compromise, supporting the young ones, embrasing the future? i admit its probably very hard for them to accept change but we have been trying for 2 years now and they still feel the same way!
I one of three youth leaders at my corp and i orgasnise the programs and events we do. We have had a HUGE struggle bringing our youth from youth group into the church, and to tell you the truth, if i was them i wouldnt want to come either. I invited one of my friends mothers to church on the weekend, but i didnt invite them to my corp because i wouldnt want them to go there cos i know they would fall asleep. I invited them to join me at another church. Something must be wrong when this happens!.....................................................................................I just want to leave the church and go somewhere else! any advice peoples?