Salvation

[Hammster]

The whole christian community brother. Myself included. We need to re-focus in all of them. Look around brother. The power and wisdom of God is in Jesus Christ. Sure, we can discuss all the theological points involved in trusting and abiding in Jesus Christ, but when the 'striving about words', and 'fruitless debates' start, scripture tells us to avoid these. That is happening amongst us.

Look up a few comments (29). Accusations are made, but no direct quote from me that will prove his point. That is caused by pride in something or someone other than Jesus Christ. All of us, that is the 'who'. Jesus Christ is christianity, and He is also salvation. Use the other points and discussions to lift up Jesus Christ. And maybe the toe will stop yelling at the finger in the body of Christ, saying they are not a part of His body. But actually work together, as a body is supposed to. Know what I mean? It is Jesus Christ who is and gives unity. We are all one when we abide in God, through and in Jesus Christ. Nothing complicated about all of this.

If you include yourself, what other name have you used? (I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't understand what you are getting at in the language used in the OP).

 

[billybtennessee]

If you include yourself, what other name have you used? (I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't understand what you are getting at in the language used in the OP).

Point is, it is Jesus Christ, the only name that matters, in salvation, and faith toward God. Everything concerning christianity. It is all in and through Jesus Christ. That is what I'm getting at.


Speaking of 'language', I have seen the word 'strawman' used here a lot. What does that mean? I don't understand it either. Or 'flaming', and the others, in simple red-neck terms, anyhow?

 

[Hammster]

Point is, it is Jesus Christ, the only name that matters, in salvation, and faith toward God. Everything concerning christianity. It is all in and through Jesus Christ. That is what I'm getting at.

Okay. I doubt you would get anyone on here who would disagree. I guess that is why I didn't understand the intent.

Speaking of 'language', I have seen the word 'strawman' used here a lot. What does that mean? I don't understand it either. Or 'flaming', and the others, in simple red-neck terms, anyhow?

A straw man argument is one where you make a false assertion against another person's view and then argue successfully against that view. An example would be that Calvinists follow John Calvin and not Jesus Christ (William Lane Craig has used that one).

 

[riverrat]

heymikey80 wrote:

justification isn't everything about salvation.

Keep trying mikey. Justification is not about salvation it is the result of salvation.

 

[heymikey80]

Keep trying mikey. Justification is not about salvation it is the result of salvation.

Salvation is a process, as Scripture states.

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor 1:18

1Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you— unless you believed in vain. 2 Cor 15:1-2

For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing 2 Cor 2:15

 

[riverrat]

heymikey wrote:

Salvation is a process, as Scripture states.

OK, Show me the process. Give me the list. Number them, starting with 1,2,etc.

 

[Hammster]

heymikey wrote:

OK, Show me the process. Give me the list. Number them, starting with 1,2,etc.

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[billybtennessee]

Jesus Christ rocks!!!

Without Jesus Christ, there would be no soteriology to discuss. Unless one could keep the law, perfectly.

"conformed to the image of His Son". Amen.

Jesus Christ Himself said "men loved darkness rather than light." He explained it perfectly, as He did everything. It is who, what, one loves most. Who are we "conformed" to? The image some folks conform to speaks loudly.

Jesus Christ rocks!!!

 

[Tzaousios]

Look up a few comments (29). Accusations are made, but no direct quote from me that will prove his point. That is caused by pride in something or someone other than Jesus Christ.

Speaking of direct quotes, why can't you quote me directly and tell me exactly how I am wrong instead of subtly hinting at it and continuing as you were before?

In post #29, I specifically quote you and pointed out the fallaciousness in trying to link by rhetorical implication those with whom you have theological disagreements (Calvinists) with violent cultists.

Tell me just how this "is caused by pride in someone other than Jesus Christ"?

 

[billybtennessee]

Speaking of direct quotes, why can't you quote me directly and tell me exactly how I am wrong instead of subtly hinting at it and continuing as you were before?

In post #29, I specifically quote you and pointed out the fallaciousness in trying to link by rhetorical implication those with whom you have theological disagreements (Calvinists) with violent cultists.

Tell me just how this "is caused by pride in someone other than Jesus Christ"?

You quoted me from post #28. It is there for anyone to read, the entire post. The only reference I made to calvinism, I made the same comment about arminians, that one could abide and believe in Jesus Christ, and be a follower of either. And also that one could be a follower of either, and not be a true believer in Jesus Christ and not abide in Him. Point is that the discusssion of 'isms', and debates regarding their theology, leads to fruits that are not of the Spirit, on any side. One just needs to read from all the different sections, even in this forum. Brother, if truth hurts, then let it. We are all in unity when we focus on Jesus Christ, He is central to all the subjects in the scripture.

No. brother, I won't put calvinism on a pedestal even close to Jesus Christ. Nor will I arminianism, or apostolic, traditional, and all the rest. We are all one body in Jesus Christ, who wants to disagree with this? Would it do any good? Are there not people coming to Jesus Christ, out of all of them? There are problems with all the different sects in christianity, that is why the theological debates and accusations have been going on for centuries now, and they will continue to, until we acknowledge we are just members of His body, and it is Jesus Christ who is the head. I am sure not blind to that, and hope you are not either. When folks start the claims of exclusiveness, then divisions come, it has always been that way. Why was there even a protest? A reformation? Calvinist were not the only ones to come out of that movement. God has/had a purpose for them all.

It also can not be proven, with any success, unless it is a blind viewpoint, that the gospel is not for all, every creature, and we were commanded to witness to, and preach the gospel to all of them. I really believe we should be focusing on that, and knowing nothing but Jesus Christ, crucified, buried, and risen from the dead, in our behalf. Gods power and wisdom is found here. That gospel saves from every sect, and only this gospel will.

I don't hate you, or calvinism. Or arminianism, or the others. What we should all hate, and avoid, are claims to exclusiveness, to the point that one says anyone in Christ, is not a part of His body. When folks start doing that, they have a veil, just as Israel did, and it is only done away in Jesus Christ. You said I condemn calvinism, and I never mentioned that sect by name. I am sure you know that there are several, in the sect that bears the same symbol you see I am a member of. There are branches within this name such as hard-shell, primitive, etc. We need to get over ourselves, and that includes every single one. Sorry you thought I meant only that one. Theology such as what we make such vain attempts at, will not save, or keep saved. It is believing and abiding in Jesus Christ, that does both. Grace, peace, and truth, is only found in Jesus Christ. Belongs to all in His body.

 

[heymikey80]

Jesus Christ rocks!!!

Without Jesus Christ, there would be no soteriology to discuss. Unless one could keep the law, perfectly.

"conformed to the image of His Son". Amen.

Jesus Christ Himself said "men loved darkness rather than light." He explained it perfectly, as He did everything. It is who, what, one loves most. Who are we "conformed" to? The image some folks conform to speaks loudly.

Jesus Christ rocks!!!

Yep! The Core, the Starter and Finisher of our faith, is Jesus Christ. He's the Center around which revolves all that is eternal.

 

[Tzaousios]

You quoted me from post #28. It is there for anyone to read, the entire post. The only reference I made to calvinism, I made the same comment about arminians, that one could abide and believe in Jesus Christ, and be a follower of either.

Yes, but there is absolutely NO question that Calvinism has and always receives the broadside of your supposed anti-ism wrath. You cannot hide this fact at all; it happens in here as well as in the Baptist forum. Thus, I feel like I was speaking with all accuracy when I pointed out that the rhetorical implications were aimed primarily at Calvinism.

Point is that the discusssion of 'isms', and debates regarding their theology, leads to fruits that are not of the Spirit, on any side. One just needs to read from all the different sections, even in this forum. Brother, if truth hurts, then let it. We are all in unity when we focus on Jesus Christ, He is central to all the subjects in the scripture.

Then, if this is what you think, stay out of the discussions. If you do join in, then do not make it appear as if you are an equal-opportunity denouncer of -isms and wholly above the fray of theological mudslinging. Also, whatever you say could do without the rhetorical denigrations of education and book-learning.

No. brother, I won't put calvinism on a pedestal even close to Jesus Christ. Nor will I arminianism, or apostolic, traditional, and all the rest. We are all one body in Jesus Christ, who wants to disagree with this? Would it do any good?

Yes, but no one else is doing this, either. We are all here to raise up Christ and join closer to him. It is just that you have a way of drawing false dichotomies between your particular "billyism," which is presented as absolutely spiritual, Biblical, and untainted by theological -isms, and the beliefs of your challengers, which are chastized as carnal, cultish, doctrines of eggheaded theologians and academics.

Are there not people coming to Jesus Christ, out of all of them? There are problems with all the different sects in christianity, that is why the theological debates and accusations have been going on for centuries now, and they will continue to, until we acknowledge we are just members of His body, and it is Jesus Christ who is the head.

Okay, as long as billyism is counted as one of them and not held artificially above the fray.

I don't hate you, or calvinism. Or arminianism, or the others. What we should all hate, and avoid, are claims to exclusiveness, to the point that one says anyone in Christ, is not a part of His body. When folks start doing that, they have a veil, just as Israel did, and it is only done away in Jesus Christ. You said I condemn calvinism, and I never mentioned that sect by name.

Nor do I you. However, I can decipher rhetoric which seeks to put one set of beliefs above another without coming right out and saying it. Also, as I mentioned above, it is quite apparent that Calvinism receives the broadside of your anti-ism wrath, even though you may not name it every time. The implications and insinuations are enough. The other -isms are thrown in there for secondary and tertiary comparisons.

 

[billybtennessee]

Yes, but there is absolutely NO question that Calvinism has and always receives the broadside of your supposed anti-ism wrath. You cannot hide this fact at all; it happens in here as well as in the Baptist forum. Thus, I feel like I was speaking with all accuracy when I pointed out that the rhetorical implications were aimed primarily at Calvinism.



Then, if this is what you think, stay out of the discussions. If you do join in, then do not make it appear as if you are an equal-opportunity denouncer of -isms and wholly above the fray of theological mudslinging. Also, whatever you say could do without the rhetorical denigrations of education and book-learning.



Yes, but no one else is doing this, either. We are all here to raise up Christ and join closer to him. It is just that you have a way of drawing false dichotomies between your particular "billyism," which is presented as absolutely spiritual, Biblical, and untainted by theological -isms, and the beliefs of your challengers, which are chastized as carnal, cultish, doctrines of eggheaded theologians and academics.



Okay, as long as billyism is counted as one of them and not held artificially above the fray.



Nor do I you. However, I can decipher rhetoric which seeks to put one set of beliefs above another without coming right out and saying it. Also, as I mentioned above, it is quite apparent that Calvinism receives the broadside of your anti-ism wrath, even though you may not name it every time. The implications and insinuations are enough. The other -isms are thrown in there for secondary and tertiary comparisons.

Provide them quotes about calvinism? If not, then it is you who are doing all the false accusations.

You are calling it 'billyism', and my thread and comments all speak for themselves. Therefore, I really do not care what you say, or think. It is Jesus Christ, and nothing else, regarding our salvation. Call it whatever you wish. It is you who make false statements and accusations. And the words are all readable for all. And every word will be accounted for, to Jesus Christ, the only truly righteous judge, soon. Maranatha.

 

[Tzaousios]

Provide them quotes about calvinism? If not, then it is you who are doing all the false accusations.

Do you mean to tell me that, despite all of the railings against Calvinism, in this and other threads, that you just happened to switch to a vague, generalized category of -isms once you trotted out the cult leader comparisons? That is hardly more convincing of the broadside not being aimed at Calvinism.

Plus, the "false accusations" rhetoric and unilateral pronouncements of anathema and accountability have already been tried recently by others who had similar priorities. Who gave you the authority to bind and loose such threats?

You are calling it 'billyism', and my thread and comments all speak for themselves. Therefore, I really do not care what you say, or think. It is Jesus Christ, and nothing else, regarding our salvation.

Right. With Jesus Christ and nothing else being what it is, salvation, all other commentary, pronouncements, dismissals, and rhetorical constructions count as billyism.

Call it whatever you wish. It is you who make false statements and accusations. And the words are all readable for all. And every word will be accounted for, to Jesus Christ, the only truly righteous judge, soon. Maranatha.

This is not about Jesus Christ and salvation. This is pointing the finger, mudslinging, and engaging in a battle of -isms. It is you making a unilateral pronouncement from some kind of judicial throne clothed in the rhetoric of righteousness and accountability for "false accusations."

 

[billybtennessee]

Do you mean to tell me that, despite all of the railings against Calvinism, in this and other threads, that you just happened to switch to a vague, generalized category of -isms once you trotted out the cult leader comparisons? That is hardly more convincing of the broadside not being aimed at Calvinism.

Plus, the "false accusations" rhetoric and unilateral pronouncements of anathema and accountability have already been tried recently by others who had similar priorities. Who gave you the authority to bind and loose such threats?



Right. With Jesus Christ and nothing else being what it is, salvation, all other commentary, pronouncements, dismissals, and rhetorical constructions count as billyism.



This is not about Jesus Christ and salvation. This is pointing the finger, mudslinging, and engaging in a battle of -isms. It is you making a unilateral pronouncement from some kind of judicial throne clothed in the rhetoric of righteousness and accountability for "false accusations."

Lot of blovating, but no quotes. Got any where I did all this and named calvinism specifically? Or was it scripture discussed?

 

[billybtennessee]

We are all here to raise up Christ and join closer to him.

I would like to read that thread, or any comments wherein you did that. I would like to commend that and comment. Can you direct me to them? Thank You.

 

[Tzaousios]

I would like to read that thread, or any comments wherein you did that. I would like to commend that and comment. Can you direct me to them? Thank You.

Although I suspect that this is sarcastic rhetoric, my record of posts are there for all to see. If you are interested you can read them too. I am not about to be finagled into proving a negative for you, however.

 

[billybtennessee]

Do you mean to tell me that, despite all of the railings against Calvinism, in this and other threads,

This part should be easy for you. You said 'in this' thread. Please give that quote in this thread, where I railed against calvinism. Or the 'other threads', where I railed against calvinism, for that matter.

Or was it scripture being pointed out? Got any regarding this thread?

 

[Tzaousios]

This part should be easy for you. You said 'in this' thread. Please give that quote in this thread, where I railed against calvinism. Or the 'other threads', where I railed against calvinism, for that matter.

Now you want me to go through every thread and quote mine for you? Interested parties can read your posts just as they can read mine. In Soteriology and in the Baptist fora the types of members whom you challenge and the kind of beliefs you bristle at are telling enough.

A better exercise might be for you to show specifically where you railed against, excoriated, or complained about a specific poster or posters who espoused a decidedly non-Calvinist or Reformed set of beliefs. They are few and far between except for those instances where you throw in "Arminianism" and vague "traditions of men" as other -isms besides Calvinism.

Or was it scripture being pointed out? Got any regarding this thread?

I am well aware of the sundry ways in which anti-Calvinists use Scripture. There is no point in rehashing them right here. Neither you nor I will be convinced of anything.

 

[billybtennessee]

Now you want me to go through every thread and quote mine for you? Interested parties can read your posts just as they can read mine.

Well, you specifically said 'this thread', I railed against calvinism. Should be easy for you, give that quote, in 'this thread'.