Salvation.

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I'm with DD on this one. That sounds OSAS to me.

I'm with RND and the other Traditional Seventh-day Adventists on this one. The SDA's got this one right. It is not safe to say "I'm saved".

Calling it OSAS bes nothing but a strawman built from ad hominem. Whee, two logical phallusies in one. Twice the sucky worthlessness for half the price!

FAIL.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

What about once saved always saved?

What about it?

Do you believe a person can have assurance of salvation and NOT believe the bible teaches this doctrine?

Absolutely. I do.

Most Adventist, including myself, don't believe in OSAS.

Many non-Adventists (myself included) don't believe in OSAS.

Yet still have assurance because we believe that the same blood that saves us today is able to save us from the WRATH to come.

I would hazzard a guess that most Adventists do not have that assurance. Rather, they ascribe to the following statements from "the pen of inspiration":

• The gospel that is to be preached to all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people presents the truth in clear lines, showing that obedience is the condition of gaining eternal life
• You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society.
• Jesus does not change the character at His coming.
• Our daily lives are determining our destiny.
• What we make of ourselves in probationary time, that we must remain to all eternity.
• The coming of Christ does not change our characters
• Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified
• When the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, then the sins of the repentant soul who received the grace of Christ and has overcome through the blood of the Lamb, will be removed from the records of heaven, and will be placed upon Satan
• Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them.
• It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement
• Everything depends on the right action of the will
• No man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins
• God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self.
• The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel sin
• Now while our great High Priest is making atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ
• Instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming
• The work of regeneration must go on in every soul until perfection of character is reached; for nothing short of this will meet the mind of God
• Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator
• And you that have not sanctified your souls by obeying the truth, do you expect that Christ at His appearing will make you ready? There will then be no atoning blood to wash away the stains of sins
• Your only safety is in coming to Christ, and ceasing from sin this very moment.
• If we regard iniquity in our hearts, if we cling to any known sin, the Lord will not hear us.
• God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven.
• Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient.
• God requires at this time just what He required of the holy pair in Eden—perfect obedience to His requirements.
• Redemption in Christ means to cease the transgression of the law of God and to be free from every sin
• When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own
• In order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning
• To be redeemed means to cease from sin
• Every impurity of thought, every lustful passion, separates the soul from God, for Christ can never put His robe of righteousness upon a sinner to hide his deformity
• The Lord clearly defined obedience as the way to the City of God

What do you think?

I think that a person cannot possibly accept the SDA denomination's position on the close of probation and have assurance of salvation. The two ideas are in direct conflict with one another.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I'm with RND and the other Traditional Seventh-day Adventists on this one. The SDA's got this one right. It is not safe to say "I'm saved".

“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:13

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears our word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24

“Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He ALWAYS lives to intercede for them.” Hebrews 7:25

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I believe there will come a time when, at the close of probation, God's character will have been judged to be perfect and all those that are ready and willingly to accept His character will have been sealed. God knows them. The wheat and chafe will have been separated.

Two points:

(1) SDAism does not only teach that the wheat and the chaff must be separated. It also teaches that Jesus Christ will cease to intercede on behalf of believers. This is in direct conflict with Hebrews 7:25. Please clarify.

(2) Believers have already been sealed. This is not a future event (please see Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 and Romans 8:16). Why does the SDA denomination teach that the sealing is a future event when Scripture teaches that it is an already completed event?

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

You must have your timeline confused. According to Revelation 17:8, this has already happened. Why does SDAism teach that names are currently being written in the book of life when Scripture teaches that names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world?

Actually, puting on immortality and incorruption are the same thing.

Not according to Scripture. Two entirely different Greek words are in play. One suggests corruption, the other suggests mortality. Phartos, correctly translated as "corruption" carries with it a connotation of corruption of character, and not simply corruption of body. The character does not become incorruptible until the trump of God. This is in direct conflict with SDA teaching.

The thing I was suggesting that were different were the renewing of the mind and heart that takes place on earth and being made immortal and incorruptible, which takes place at the second coming.

Though man may exhibit fruits of the Spirit, man does not become incorruptible until the trump of God. Scripture is abundantly clear on this point (see 1 Corinthians 15, Matthew 19:27-28 and Revelation 21:1-5).

But we can experience the "renewal" process right here and right now through the Holy Spirit.

Yes, believing sinners exhibit fruits of the Spirit. We agree on that point. However, believers do not become sinless prior to the close of probation in order to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Scripture is clear.

I've never seen such a teaching nor heard such a thing.

Fair enough. These are some of the quotes to which I refer:

“If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. Defects of character must be repented of and overcome through the grace of Christ, and a symmetrical character must be formed while in this probationary state, that we may be fitted for the mansions above” (13MR82, 1891)

“It is a solemn thing to die, but a far more solemn thing to live. Every thought and word and deed of our lives will meet us again. What we make of ourselves in probationary time, that we must remain to all eternity. Death brings dissolution to the body, but makes no change in the character. The coming of Christ does not change our characters; it only fixes them forever beyond all change” (5T 466, 1885)
​

Certainly EGW never made mention of such things.

As you can see, Ellen G. White did in fact make mention of such things. Is this Biblical, or is this error?

I'm with DD on this one. That sounds OSAS to me.

You conclude that Romans 8 is in error? Why are you making this about OSAS? I would guess that neither of us espouse that teaching.

Nope. It is fairly clear that we can put on the mind of Christ and think and act as He did. That's the purpose of being "renewed" in Christ.

Here is the statement from me to which you replied:

"The carnal nature remains until the trump of God."
​

Since that was my statement, please demonstrate the Scripture that the Bible teaches that the carnal nature is replaced with a sinless nature prior to the close of probation. Thanks.

It is then that God replaces corruption with incorruption.

Then why do you assert that corruption is replaced with incorruption prior to the close of probation?

We do nothing to merit this replacement. We are saved by grace, not works.

I agree.

BFA

 

[RND]

Two points:

(1) SDAism does not only teach that the wheat and the chaff must be separated. It also teaches that Jesus Christ will cease to intercede on behalf of believers. This is in direct conflict with Hebrews 7:25. Please clarify.

Hebrews 7:25 says "he ever liveth to make intercession for them." This is certainly true. It is equally true that the verse does not say that He "continually" does this. The verse says Jesus "lives" to do this, not "always and forever" makes intercession.

The NIV says this very plainly, "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."

(2) Believers have already been sealed. This is not a future event (please see Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 and Romans 8:16). Why does the SDA denomination teach that the sealing is a future event when Scripture teaches that it is an already completed event?

There are new converts and believers in Jesus Christ and His atoning blood made daily. However, what is being sealed in the future?

You must have your timeline confused. According to Revelation 17:8, this has already happened. Why does SDAism teach that names are currently being written in the book of life when Scripture teaches that names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world?

No confusion. The verse says only those NOT written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. That plainly tells me that the only ones NOT found in the book of life are those that were NOT written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

If the wedding invitations were sent out from the foundation of the world, since God knew would attend and who wouldn't, what's the purpose of the parable in Matthew 22:1-14?

Mat 22:10
So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Not according to Scripture. Two entirely different Greek words are in play. One suggests corruption, the other suggests mortality. Phartos, correctly translated as "corruption" carries with it a connotation of corruption of character, and not simply corruption of body. The character does not become incorruptible until the trump of God. This is in direct conflict with SDA teaching.

Nope, try again BFA. Adventism does not teach "sinless perfection." And you missed completely my point about "immortality and incorruption." The are the same thing because they go together like peas and carrots.

One won't put on either until either one is put on.

Though man may exhibit fruits of the Spirit, man does not become incorruptible until the trump of God. Scripture is abundantly clear on this point (see 1 Corinthians 15, Matthew 19:27-28 and Revelation 21:1-5).

Right. I never suggested anything different.

Yes, believing sinners exhibit fruits of the Spirit. We agree on that point. However, believers do not become sinless prior to the close of probation in order to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Scripture is clear.

And that's the rub. I believe the "renewing" of the mind begins right here on Earth, where we can begin to walk as He did and begin to shed our "carnal" nature.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Are you suggesting that once we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior we still at "enmity against God?"

Fair enough. These are some of the quotes to which I refer:

“If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. Defects of character must be repented of and overcome through the grace of Christ, and a symmetrical character must be formed while in this probationary state, that we may be fitted for the mansions above” (13MR82, 1891)

“It is a solemn thing to die, but a far more solemn thing to live. Every thought and word and deed of our lives will meet us again. What we make of ourselves in probationary time, that we must remain to all eternity. Death brings dissolution to the body, but makes no change in the character. The coming of Christ does not change our characters; it only fixes them forever beyond all change” (5T 466, 1885)
​

As you can see, Ellen G. White did in fact make mention of such things. Is this Biblical, or is this error?

I see what you are mentioning here. Thanks for the examples. I see nothing wrong in these passages. They certainly suggest that our characters can be shaped and molded by continuing in a life with Jesus Christ and having His character replace ours.

OSAS doesn't believe that which is a shame.

You conclude that Romans 8 is in error? Why are you making this about OSAS? I would guess that neither of us espouse that teaching.

Not Romans 8, OSAS.

Here is the statement from me to which you replied:

"The carnal nature remains until the trump of God."
​

Since that was my statement, please demonstrate the Scripture that the Bible teaches that the carnal nature is replaced with a sinless nature prior to the close of probation. Thanks.

I never said that the carnal nature is "replaced" with a sinless nature I said that the "renewing" of the mind begins on earth. Things that are of spirit can only be understood in spirit. That's the renewal of the mind in a nutshell. The sin I used to do out of habit is replaced by a spiritual understanding of what "sin" really is.

These were my exact words regarding your comment on the carnal nature:

It is fairly clear that we can put on the mind of Christ and think and act as He did. That's the purpose of being "renewed" in Christ. It is then that God replaces corruption with incorruption. We do nothing to merit this replacement. We are saved by grace, not works.

Then why do you assert that corruption is replaced with incorruption prior to the close of probation?

Because a "carnal" mind can indeed be replaced when the thoughts are turned towards the Savior. A "corruptible mind" can become and "incorruptible" mind. See my quote again. This is not something "we" do, but something "God" does through Jesus Christ.

Once probation is closed everyone will have decided what came they have chosen to be in. They decide whether they wish to be wheat or tares.

If everyone's mind is made up for them ahead of time then there is no need to preach the Gospel. None.

I agree.

Good!

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Hebrews 7:25 says "he ever liveth to make intercession for them." This is certainly true. It is equally true that the verse does not say that He "continually" does this. The verse says Jesus "lives" to do this, not "always and forever" makes intercession.The NIV says this very plainly, "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."

And yet SDAism teaches that Jesus does not ever live to make intercession for us. Who should we trust?

There are new converts and believers in Jesus Christ and His atoning blood made daily. However, what is being sealed in the future?

What was sealed in Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22?

No confusion. The verse says only those NOT written in the book of life from the foundation of the world. That plainly tells me that the only ones NOT found in the book of life are those that were NOT written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

So when exactly are names written in the book of life? Now or from the foundation of the world (see also Revelation 13:8)?

Nope, try again BFA. Adventism does not teach "sinless perfection."

Indeed it does. Specifically, SDAism teaches:

• The gospel that is to be preached to all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people presents the truth in clear lines, showing that obedience is the condition of gaining eternal life
• You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society.
• Jesus does not change the character at His coming.
• Our daily lives are determining our destiny.
• What we make of ourselves in probationary time, that we must remain to all eternity.
• The coming of Christ does not change our characters
• Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified
• When the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, then the sins of the repentant soul who received the grace of Christ and has overcome through the blood of the Lamb, will be removed from the records of heaven, and will be placed upon Satan
• Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them.
• It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement
• Everything depends on the right action of the will
• No man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins
• God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self.
• The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel sin
• Now while our great High Priest is making atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ

And you missed completely my point about "immortality and incorruption." The are the same thing because they go together like peas and carrots. One won't put on either until either one is put on.

They may happen at the same time, but they aren't the same thing. Many SDAs assert that 1 Corinthians 15 refers only to the body and not to the character. This isn't supported by the text.

Right. I never suggested anything different.

And yet your denomination clearly does:

“If you would be a saint in heaven, you must first be a saint on earth. The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. Defects of character must be repented of and overcome through the grace of Christ, and a symmetrical character must be formed while in this probationary state, that we may be fitted for the mansions above” (13MR82, 1891)

“It is a solemn thing to die, but a far more solemn thing to live. Every thought and word and deed of our lives will meet us again. What we make of ourselves in probationary time, that we must remain to all eternity. Death brings dissolution to the body, but makes no change in the character. The coming of Christ does not change our characters; it only fixes them forever beyond all change” (5T 466, 1885)

I see what you are mentioning here. Thanks for the examples. I see nothing wrong in these passages.

This is an alarming admission!


Ellen G. White has written that we must remain for all eternity that which we make of ourselves right now. Not only is this a hopeless statement, it is contrary to Scripture.


Further, Mrs. White has written that Christ does not change our characters at His coming, but Scripture clearly teaches that He does. Where is the good news in Mrs. White's gospel?


You claim that SDA does not teach sinless perfection, but the evidence shows us that this claim is not valid.

They certainly suggest that our characters can be shaped and molded by continuing in a life with Jesus Christ and having His character replace ours.

Mrs. White teaches that we form the character (see Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 331).

And that's the rub. I believe the "renewing" of the mind begins right here on Earth, where we can begin to walk as He did and begin to shed our "carnal" nature.

That may be your belief, but it isn't grounded in Scripture. Exhibiting the fruits of the Spirit is not synonymous with shedding one's carnal nature. According to SDAism, one must shed his carnal nature in order to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. How much of your carnal nature must you shed in order to live without a mediator?

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Nope. It sure cannot. This is why Paul exclaims "what a wretched man am I."

Are you suggesting that once we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior we still at "enmity against God?"

Yup. Human righteousness is as a filthy rag. There is no one righteous; not even one. The whole world is a prisoner of sin. Every man who sins is a slave to sin.

I never said that the carnal nature is "replaced" with a sinless nature I said that the "renewing" of the mind begins on earth.

How are we to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator if sin remains in us? Mrs. White is abundantly clear that our carnal nature is being replaced now. And so were you when you wrote: "And that's the rub. I believe the "renewing" of the mind begins right here on Earth, where we can begin to walk as He did and begin to shed our "carnal" nature."


BFA

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I would hazard a guess that most Adventists do not have that assurance. Rather, they ascribe to the following statements from "the pen of inspiration":

• The gospel that is to be preached to all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people presents the truth in clear lines, showing that obedience is the condition of gaining eternal life
• You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society.
• Jesus does not change the character at His coming.
• Our daily lives are determining our destiny.
• What we make of ourselves in probationary time, that we must remain to all eternity.
• The coming of Christ does not change our characters
• Only by perfect obedience to the requirements of God's holy law can man be justified
• When the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, then the sins of the repentant soul who received the grace of Christ and has overcome through the blood of the Lamb, will be removed from the records of heaven, and will be placed upon Satan
• Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them.
• It is left with us to remedy the defects in our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement
• Everything depends on the right action of the will
• No man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins
• God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard stern battles with self.
• The blood of Christ, while it was to release the repentant sinner from the condemnation of the law, was not to cancel sin
• Now while our great High Priest is making atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ
• Instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to His coming
• The work of regeneration must go on in every soul until perfection of character is reached; for nothing short of this will meet the mind of God
• Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator
• And you that have not sanctified your souls by obeying the truth, do you expect that Christ at His appearing will make you ready? There will then be no atoning blood to wash away the stains of sins
• Your only safety is in coming to Christ, and ceasing from sin this very moment.
• If we regard iniquity in our hearts, if we cling to any known sin, the Lord will not hear us.
• God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven.
• Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient.
• God requires at this time just what He required of the holy pair in Eden—perfect obedience to His requirements.
• Redemption in Christ means to cease the transgression of the law of God and to be free from every sin
• When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own
• In order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning
• To be redeemed means to cease from sin
• Every impurity of thought, every lustful passion, separates the soul from God, for Christ can never put His robe of righteousness upon a sinner to hide his deformity
• The Lord clearly defined obedience as the way to the City of God

I think that a person cannot possibly accept the SDA denomination's position on the close of probation and have assurance of salvation. The two ideas are in direct conflict with one another.

Here it bes quarter to five in the a.m. Moriah has not slept this night and feels no tiredness yet. But it knows its body bes tired and it likely could not sustain what it really desires to do at this moment: go through each and every one of these statements and utterly refute it with scripture. It will endeavor to do so when it has rested and has time to attend the task, but meanwhile it offers for everyone's consideration the simple fact that yes, such a thing can and should be done.

It must address one in particular straightaway, though. This whole notion of Christ's "robe of righteousness". First, this nomenclature comes from the parable of the wedding feast in which one guest bes found not wearing wedding clothes. Long story. Anyway, the point being the parable does not mean God picked through the guests and found someone who had not managed to quit sinning yet ('scusey but have ANY of us managed THAT feat yet? Raise your hand if -- HAH, didn't THINK so. ) It means, in fact, the exact opposite of what the perfectionism-driven contingent in SDA-land claims it to mean. It means no more and no less than that the only way to enter the Kingdom bes through Christ, and one must be "clothed in Him" to have valid entrance into the Kingdom of God (and admission to the wedding feast). Being clothed in Him means exactly this thing: that He marks us with His precious blood as our "passover" and the wrath of God (His just judgment against sin) passes over us as a result. When God looks at us He sees the sacrifice of His Son and for the sake of that sacrifice and ONLY that sacrifice -- NOT anything "good" that WE do -- we bes spared from eternal death.

OK, will delve into some of the others tomorrow or this weekend. God bless.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

RND, are you still around? If so, do you have any response for the questions I raised:

Does SDAism teach that Jesus ever lives to make intercession for us?

What was sealed in Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22?

When exactly are names written in the book of life--now or from the foundation of the world (see Revelation 13:8)?

Where is the good news in Mrs. White's gospel when she writes that Christ does not change our characters at His coming and that we will take with us to Heaven the character that we develop here on earth?

Does Scripture teach that we will take to Heaven with us the character that we develop here on earth?

How much of your carnal nature must you shed in order to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator; stated differently, how are we to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator if sin remains in us?

Just checking to see if you're still around.

BFA