Salvation.

[RND]

In what way does this text contradict the teaching of Scripture that justified persons sin?



In what way does this text contradict the teaching of Scripture that justified persons sin?

As far as I'm aware there are no contradictions in the Bible. If the Bible contradicts itself then it cannot be the infallible Word of God.

See Hebrews 6.

Note that the text you cited says none of the above. These are your words.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

We agree. Since the corruptible does not put on incorrruption until Christ's second coming, do you conclude that justified persons are sinless prior to Christ's second coming?

No. However they are subject to sin less and less and abhor sin more and more. In other words, an adulterer isn't prone to want to continue in adultery, a bank robber sees the light and stops robbing banks, a drug addict finally gains the victory over his demons, a theft stops stealing, liars start telling the truth, etc.

Is salvation contingent upon sinlessness or upon an adequate amount of sin removal?

Being washed in the blood of the lamb.

1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

How much sin is too much sin?

Just enough to put Christ on the cross. You're question is like asking how pregnant is too much?

 

[digdeep]

Seems strange that so few folks are interested in discussing this topic. Do we agree that it is an important topic? In the interest of sparking more discussion, I have a follow-up question:

Q: Do the changes that the Holy Spirit creates in a believer qualify that believer for Heaven -OR- has the qualification of the believer already been secured?
​

BFA

P.S. Thanks to Peg for letting me borrow this question; I liked the way she worded it.

Interesting question. It seems scripture supports that the qualification of the believer already has been secured by Jesus blood and righteousness. As a matter of fact the Holy Spirit can only work in the person who has accepted this gift of Grace.

"For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Heb 10:14

"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:" Col 1:12-14

"For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit." Romans 8:3,4


DD

 

[Byfaithalone1]

No. However they are subject to sin less and less and abhor sin more and more.

Your argument is the reason for my question--how much sin is too much? Care to answer the question?

In other words, an adulterer isn't prone to want to continue in adultery, a bank robber sees the light and stops robbing banks, a drug addict finally gains the victory over his demons, a theft stops stealing, liars start telling the truth, etc.

What happens if a former adulterer lusts after a woman after the close of probation and before the trump of God? What advocate has He with the Father?

What happens if a former thief covets the possessions of another after the close of probation and before the trump of God? What advocate has He with the Father?

What happens if a former liar tells a lie after the close of probation and before the trump of God? What advocate has He with the Father?

“Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He ALWAYS lives to intercede for them.” Hebrews 7:25

“Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.” Hebrews 4:14-16
​

When is the renewal of all things?

“Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones.’” Matt. 19:27-28


“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. He who was seated on the throne said, I am making everything new! Then he said, Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." Rev. 21:1-5
​

Our hope isn't found in sin removal. Our hope is found in Jesus Christ:

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” Romans 5:1-11.


“He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” Titus 3:5.


“I tell you the truth, whoever hears our word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24


“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:13
​

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Interesting question. It seems scripture supports that the qualification of the believer already has been secured by Jesus blood and righteousness. As a matter of fact the Holy Spirit can only work in the person who has accepted this gift of Grace.

Exactly. This is why I believe that justified persons can have assurance TODAY of salvation. They do not have to wait until Christ comes in order to find out whether there has been an adequate amount of sin removal in their lives. No, they can have assurance TODAY based on the finished work of Christ's atonement.

BFA

 

[RND]

Your argument is the reason for my question--how much sin is too much? Care to answer the question?

Asked an answered. Just one sin, and Christ would have taken up the cross.

What happens if a former adulterer lusts after a woman after the close of probation and before the trump of God? What advocate has He with the Father?

What happens if a former thief covets the possessions of another after the close of probation and before the trump of God? What advocate has He with the Father?

What happens if a former liar tells a lie after the close of probation and before the trump of God? What advocate has He with the Father?

“Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He ALWAYS lives to intercede for them.” Hebrews 7:25

“Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.” Hebrews 4:14-16​

What happens if they DON'T seek intercession through repentance?

When is the renewal of all things?

“Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones.’” Matt. 19:27-28


“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. He who was seated on the throne said, I am making everything new! Then he said, Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." Rev. 21:1-5​

Yep.

Our hope isn't found in sin removal. Our hope is found in Jesus Christ:

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. Not only so but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.” Romans 5:1-11.


“He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.” Titus 3:5.


“I tell you the truth, whoever hears our word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.” John 5:24


“I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.” 1 John 5:13
​

BFA

Who removes the desire to sin and to commit transgression?

1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The desire is not to sin, not to see how much sin one can get away with.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

What happens if they DON'T seek intercession through repentance?

Who removes the desire to sin and to commit transgression?

I'm happy to answer your questions and will certainly do so. However, in a 2-way dialogue we answer one another's questions. In the interest of better understanding where we agree and disagree, here are questions previously asked for which I'm hoping you might provide answers:

Q1: What happens if a former adulterer lusts after a woman after the close of probation and before the trump of God? What advocate has he with the Father?

Q2: What happens if a former thief covets the possessions of another after the close of probation and before the trump of God? What advocate has he with the Father?

Q3: What happens if a former liar tells a lie after the close of probation and before the trump of God? What advocate has he with the Father?

Q4: When is the renewal of all things?
​

BFA

 

[RND]

I'm happy to answer your questions and will certainly do so. However, in a 2-way dialogue we answer one another's questions. In the interest of better understanding where we agree and disagree, here are questions previously asked for which I'm hoping you might provide answers:

Q1: What happens if a former adulterer lusts after a woman after the close of probation and before the trump of God? What advocate has he with the Father?​

That depends on if they are truly repentant. Only God knows.

Pro 26:11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, [so] a fool returneth to his folly.

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog [is] turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Tts 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Q2: What happens if a former thief covets the possessions of another after the close of probation and before the trump of God? What advocate has he with the Father?

That depends on if they are truly repentant. Only God knows.

Q3: What happens if a former liar tells a lie after the close of probation and before the trump of God? What advocate has he with the Father?

That depends on if they are truly repentant. Only God knows.

Q4: When is the renewal of all things?

The beginning of the renewal of all things has already occurred. We don't have to wait for death to be renewed. We can become new creatures in the Lord the minute we accept His promise.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


​

 

[Byfaithalone1]

That depends on if they are truly repentant. Only God knows.

Since you didn't answer my question, I'll try restating it. Will Jesus Christ intercede on behalf of believers who sin between the close of probation and the trump of God? YES or NO.

The beginning of the renewal of all things has already occurred. We don't have to wait for death to be renewed. We can become new creatures in the Lord the minute we accept His promise.

And yet this corruptible will not put on incorruption until the trump of God, when we will experience the renewal of all things.

BFA

 

[RND]

Since you didn't answer my question, I'll try restating it. Will Jesus Christ intercede on behalf of believers who sin between the close of probation and the trump of God? YES or NO.

Sure! But He won't intercede on behalf of someone that is not truly repentant.

For example, there is a huge difference in the giving up of sin out of the fear of punishment; the fear of what will happen if one doesn't stop sinning (the repentance for self) and a genuine repentant heart that sees what sin actually has done and what the result of sin is responsible for.....the Death of Jesus Christ.

Go to Google, type in "true repentance." See how many articles and commentaries harmonize with:

Repentance includes sorrow for sin and a turning away from it. We shall not renounce sin unless we see its sinfulness; until we turn away from it in heart, there will be no real change in the life. {SC 23.2}

There are many who fail to understand the true nature of repentance. Multitudes sorrow that they have sinned and even make an outward reformation because they fear that their wrongdoing will bring suffering upon themselves. But this is not repentance in the Bible sense. They lament the suffering rather than the sin. Such was the grief of Esau when he saw that the birthright was lost to him forever. Balaam, terrified by the angel standing in his pathway with drawn sword, acknowledged his guilt lest he should lose his life; but there was no genuine repentance for sin, no conversion of purpose, no abhorrence of evil. Judas Iscariot, after betraying his Lord, exclaimed, "I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood." Matthew 27:4. {SC 23.3}

And yet this corruptible will not put on incorruption until the trump of God, when we will experience the renewal of all things.

Two different things actually. Paul is talking about flesh that cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. Only those born of the "Spirit" can enter into the Kingdom of God.

1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

In using "neither" Paul is clearly describing two different things.

What Paul is saying is that one must be born of the Spirit to enter into the Kingdom of God, which is in the Heart of the believer. It does not come by observation but by the Spirit.

Conversely, corruption (that which is flesh) cannot inherit incorruption (perfection, heaven).

Eze 44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that [is] among the children of Israel.

Thus, what is right by the law cannot be observed in the flesh but only by the Spirit. Not by anything we can do by ourself, but by the Spirit in us.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Sure! But He won't intercede on behalf of someone that is not truly repentant.

SDAism teaches that Jesus Christ will no longer mediate on behalf of any believer (be he repentent or unrepentent) following the close of probation. Is it safe to say that you disagree with this teaching?

Two different things actually.

Agreed. But the two things are quite connected. The mortal will put on immortality and the corruptible will put on incorruption. The two things are different, but they are nonetheless related. It is only at the trump of God that man will be incorruptible.

Now, contrast what Scripture teaches on this subject with the teachings of SDAism that there is no change in man's disposition or character at the trump of God and that we will bring with us to Heaven the character that we develop here on earth. Do have concerns about such teaching?

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

OK. I'm getting back to your other questions. Hopefully, you will answer my previous post in which I ask questions about the SDA position on the close of probation.

What happens if they DON'T seek intercession through repentance?

"For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8

Who removes the desire to sin and to commit transgression?

The carnal nature remains until the trump of God. It is then that God replaces corruption with incorruption. We do nothing to merit this replacement. We are saved by grace, not works.


BFA

 

[digdeep]

Exactly. This is why I believe that justified persons can have assurance TODAY of salvation. They do not have to wait until Christ comes in order to find out whether there has been an adequate amount of sin removal in their lives. No, they can have assurance TODAY based on the finished work of Christ's atonement.

BFA

What about once saved always saved? Do you believe a person can have assurance of salvation and NOT believe the bible teaches this doctrine?

Most Adventist, including myself, don't believe in OSAS. Yet still have assurance because we believe that the same blood that saves us today is able to save us from the WRATH to come.

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!" Romans 5:9

What do you think?

DD

 

[RND]

SDAism teaches that Jesus Christ will no longer mediate on behalf of any believer (be he repentent or unrepentent) following the close of probation. Is it safe to say that you disagree with this teaching?

No, that is not safe to say. I believe there will come a time when, at the close of probation, God's character will have been judged to be perfect and all those that are ready and willingly to accept His character will have been sealed. God knows them. The wheat and chafe will have been separated.

I might debate my SDA brethren as to when this might happen, but make no mistake, it will happen.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

After Michael stands up, after the judge has left the courtroom, there will be a time of trouble and those that are in the book will be delivered.

Agreed. But the two things are quite connected. The mortal will put on immortality and the corruptible will put on incorruption. The two things are different, but they are nonetheless related. It is only at the trump of God that man will be incorruptible.

Actually, puting on immortality and incorruption are the same thing. The thing I was suggesting that were different were the renewing of the mind and heart that takes place on earth and being made immortal and incorruptible, which takes place at the second coming.

Those are the two things I was saying are different.

In your quote you suggested that the renewing takes place when Jesus comes back:

And yet this corruptible will not put on incorruption until the trump of God, when we will experience the renewal of all things.

But we can experience the "renewal" process right here and right now through the Holy Spirit. We don't have to wait until Jesus returns for that.

Now, contrast what Scripture teaches on this subject with the teachings of SDAism that there is no change in man's disposition or character at the trump of God and that we will bring with us to Heaven the character that we develop here on earth. Do have concerns about such teaching?

I've never seen such a teaching nor heard such a thing. Certainly EGW never made mention of such things. In fact, I would say that more people would have a problem with her teaching that one doesn't have to repent first before starting a relationship with Christ.

"The Bible does not teach that the sinner must repent before he can heed the invitation of Christ, "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28. It is the virtue that goes forth from Christ, that leads to genuine repentance. Peter made the matter clear in his statement to the Israelites when he said, "Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." Acts 5:31. We can no more repent without the Spirit of Christ to awaken the conscience than we can be pardoned without Christ." STC page 26

 

[Pythons]

I'm with RND and the other Traditional Seventh-day Adventists on this one. The SDA's got this one right. It is not safe to say "I'm saved".

 

[RND]

OK. I'm getting back to your other questions. Hopefully, you will answer my previous post in which I ask questions about the SDA position on the close of probation.

"For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." Romans 8

I'm with DD on this one. That sounds OSAS to me.

The carnal nature remains until the trump of God.

Nope. It is fairly clear that we can put on the mind of Christ and think and act as He did. That's the purpose of being "renewed" in Christ.

It is then that God replaces corruption with incorruption. We do nothing to merit this replacement. We are saved by grace, not works.

I disagree. We can be converted and made new without having to die and be made incorruptible at the second coming. Ans yes, we are saved saved by grace, not works - yet show me your faith and I'll see your works.

 

[digdeep]

I'm with DD on this one. That sounds OSAS to me.

let me clarify. I do believe the bible teach assurance of salvation based totally upon Jesus' blood and righteousness and not on any works of mine. my point is that this could be thought of as OSAS, but it's not, and just wanted other thoughts on this subject.

dd

 

[Pythons]

Provided one is equally assured of thier own desctuction then I would agree that one could also have assurance of Salvation.

 

[digdeep]

Provided one is equally assured of thier own desctuction then I would agree that one could also have assurance of Salvation.

The moment Adam sinned our destruction was assured but Jesus came and set us free. Rejoice! Salvation is assured to all those who trust in Jesus.

"What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:31-39

DD

 

[Pythons]

The Council of Trent condemns anyone who teaches that a person can save themself and also condemns anyone who teaches that God helps us do what we can do for ourselves. Humans are ONLY saved by God's Grace.

As a Catholic I believe Justification comes "by Faith" NOT "through Faith alone."

"You see that Faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness". James 2,24

In Romans 3,28 the word "ALONE" as in "Faith Alone" was added by Luther when he translated the Greek into German. The only time "faith alone" is used is in James 2,24 which clearly states Justification does not come from faith alone.

You have a Holy Council bolstered by Sacred Scripture. To me it's case closed but I understand I 'may be alone' in this view in this forum. Justification = Salvation or Faith + works = Justification / Salvation. A person's works that grow out of Faith enables the person to say "I hope I'm saved".

 

[Sophia7]

The Council of Trent condemns anyone who teaches that a person can save themself and also condemns anyone who teaches that God helps us do what we can do for ourselves. Humans are ONLY saved by God's Grace.

As a Catholic I believe Justification comes "by Faith" NOT "through Faith alone."

"You see that Faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness". James 2,24

In Romans 3,28 the word "ALONE" as in "Faith Alone" was added by Luther when he translated the Greek into German. The only time "faith alone" is used is in James 2,24 which clearly states Justification does not come from faith alone.

You have a Holy Council bolstered by Sacred Scripture. To me it's case closed but I understand I 'may be alone' in this view in this forum. Justification = Salvation or Faith + works = Justification / Salvation. A person's works that grow out of Faith enables the person to say "I hope I'm saved".

Traditional Adventism has a lot in common with Catholicism on this subject. You may be alone on it in the Progressive forum, though.