Salvation Questions

[AJ]

I was having a discussion with a gentleman at work today who is a new member of the Unitarian Church... We were discussing Salvation... How we are all sinners and none of us are worthy of the gift of Salvation... But that through God's love and grace it is made available to us in Christ.

He said that he doesn't believe that everyone is going to hell (or that there even is a hell) since #1 God is perfect and does not make mistakes. Therefore He would not need hell... and #2 that the Bible is not the one truth... or even God's word. He believes that there are many truths... And that all of the various religions of the world are still worshiping one god... The same for Christians as Muslims as anyone else...

He also made the arguement that if Jesus is the only way, then what will happen to all the people who have never had the opportunity to know Jesus (due to their location, etc)... And how could anyone believe that such a huge portion of the worlds population could be condemned to hell, simply because of where God placed them geographically.

I responded as best as I could... Showed him some scripture and told him that we had missionaries working all over the world to try and save those people... But I really feel like I am lacking sufficent knowledge to justify my statement... Again, he dismisses the Bible as a book written by men... So scripture references are something that don't carry much weight with him.

I am comfortable with responding to our imperfection as man... And to the existence of hell... But I am struggling with how to answer his questions about the people who have not been exposed to the Word of God and given the chance to accept Christ. I was wondering how you guys would respond to this question and if you had any suggestions?

I have a book at home with a section on the Unitarian Church, that I am going to read... So I can better understand his faith and perspective...

Please pray for my friend... Pray that God will put His hand on him and open his heart to the truth of God's Word. I am probably not the best person to try and explain all of this to him... But I am doing the best I can. So any prayers you can send my way for the Spirit to help me minister to my friend would be greatly appreciated.

God Bless!

 

[Gold Dragon]

He also made the arguement that if Jesus is the only way, then what will happen to all the people who have never had the opportunity to know Jesus (due to their location, etc)... And how could anyone believe that such a huge portion of the worlds population could be condemned to hell, simply because of where God placed them geographically.

...

I am comfortable with responding to our imperfection as man... And to the existence of hell... But I am struggling with how to answer his questions about the people who have not been exposed to the Word of God and given the chance to accept Christ. I was wondering how you guys would respond to this question and if you had any suggestions?

To a Unitarian who does not hold scripture to be an authority, you need to appeal to his authority which is probably compassion and reason. I would try to appeal to those aspects by illustrating how Catholic theologian Karl Rahner struggled with those very same issues when he proposed his theology of inclusive Christianity that is now quite pervasive in the Catholic faith.

Divine Revelation in Other Religious Traditions?
...
The theologian who provided the underlying theology for inclusivism is [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Karl Rahner[/size][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1], who began his argument by assuming that an all-loving God would not exclude the majority of human kind from salvation simply because they have no knowledge of him. At the same time, he insists, “salvation comes only through the grace of God mediated in his Church.”[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] [19] [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]His explanation and contribution to the unravelling of this conundrum is based on four arguments.[/size][/font][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]The first is that the fundamental claim that Christianity makes on everyone to their adherence is qualified by their opportunity to participate in its revelation, that is in their historical and existential situation.[/size][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] [20][/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Starting with a not totally pessimistic view of mankind, Rahner acknowledges that non-Christian religions may contain both “error and depravity” as well as supernatural aspects, “arising out of the grace which is given to men as a gratuitous gift on account of Christ.”[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] [21] [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]He further argues that if this offer of grace is to mean anything it must be offered to a person in that society through “the specific form of his social and historical life.”[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] [22] [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]The example that Rahner gives is that of the Jews of the Old Testament whose religion contained both elements, but which nevertheless provided the means by which many attained salvation.[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] [23] [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Rahner then suggests that in principle this situation may apply to other non-Christian religions, to varying degrees[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] [24] [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1].[/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Rahner’s third argument follows from the first two, in that, if a non-Christian, having salvific grace available to him through his religion, accepts that grace in his heart, then that person has accepted “the God that is historically and definitively revealed in Christ.”[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] [25] [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]This really means that all men, who sincerely want to live in accordance with God's will and have accepted his grace into their being, could be considered as though they were already members of the Christian community, and therefore sharers in Christ’s salvation, even though they themselves may not be aware of it. Rahner regards these people as "anonymous Christians"[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] [26] [/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Fullness comes for the “anonymous Christian” when this implicit acceptance becomes explicit, since this brings with it “other things being equal, a still greater chance of salvation.”[/size][/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1] [27][/size][/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][size=-1]Rahner finally argues that while it is true that non-Christian religions may possess many "true and holy" things, they do not possess the fullness of divine truth. For Rahner the Church is the tangible sign of the fulfilment of all their spiritual aspirations, of Christ present in the world.[/size][/font][/font]

Emphasize that this is a problem that serious non-Unitarian theologians have tried to tackle without a rejection of the authority of scripture.

I personally would say that this falls under the "I don't know" category. It is God who judges, not I and if he chooses to save non-Christians, then who am I to argue with him. In the meantime, I will share the good news of Jesus Christ who is the way that I do know will give them the gift of a fulfilled life on earth and eternal life to come.

 

[eutychus]

I concur with the above poster...target whoever he believes his authority to be. Clearly whatever authority it may be (even if it is creation itself) has been tainted with man's thoughts, so no person can really know anything through it if one follow's his reasoning.

To explain salvation, you would probably want to stem from the nature of God, and his perfection (consequently, how he is so holy that he cannot be in the presence of anything imperfect), since you both share the belief that in being God, he is perfect. From there, you can explain how in his perfection, he is God--ruler, LORD--so he must be just in his dealings with man, on his terms (otherwise, after all, he would not be God). Because his terms are perfection through Jesus Christ, any person who falls short of that falls short of the standard of God...even if that person has never heard of how he can attain this perfection. Though it may seem unfair to us, you can remind him that God would not be any God at all if he played by man's fairness. It is through even the opportunity to know God that he shows us his love, and that he sent Jesus to die.

It's philosophizing, but that's all the unitarian church stands on anyway--this is just more rational philosophy than their doctrine which has no grounds in anything whatsoever.

Grace,
Cass

 

[Thanatosimii]

It seems to be a very human centered question. Perhaps (do this gentally, no fire and brimstone bible bashing) question why everything has to be all about man, and why God is indebted to give all men, who when given free will, decided to mess up anyway, a way to heavan anyway.

Does he even admit that man makes mistakes?

 

[daveleau]

It is very difficult to get through to liberal theology believers like this. Our guidance and our belief is that the Bible is the paramount guidance. It leads our theology and our Faith. But, liberal theologians have such fundamental differences that it is very difficult to get through to them. You have to really know their belief system and find the holes in it. Otehrwise you will get to a point where it is a "yes it is - no it isn't" argument. Study up on their faith and find out where they are wrong and talk to him from that standpoint.

God bless,
Dave

 

[AJ]

I had planned on reading up on his faith lastnight, but with Turkey Dinner and family time I just never did. I did read a great chapter in the book "Hell? Yes!" which deals with the questions of the existence of hell... and why God would send "good people" to hell.

One point that I wish I had thought about yesterday is how their faith deals with people like Hitler... Dalmer... Manson... If we are all inheriently good... And all go to heaven... Then are these guys included in that? If you open any newspaper you will quickly see that we are not all inheriently good... In fact it is so depressing to see what we do to eachother, that I rarely read the paper anymore.

Thank you for all the replies and advice! God Bless!

 

[Wonderfulmom]

I would say pray for the Holy Spirit to give you the words to say. Also, most people believe that if a person doesn't hear the gospel then God won't judge them the same way...in other words he won't automatically send them to hell. All things can't be truth. There is only one truth and that is Jesus who said I am the way, the truth and the light and no one gets to the father except through me. Remember this for the next discussion...Jesus said "I am THE way.." not one of many ways. With regard to Hell and God being perfect...it is man who rejects God not the other way around. If I were you I would prepare answers for all of these objections and then next time they can just flow...God bless...

 

[Wonderfulmom]

P.S. there are some good Christan apologetics websites on the net..those are very helpful also. God bless.

 

[Matthan]

The bottom line to this non-believer (which, based on his own statements of non-belief, he most assuredly is) is that he wants to make up his own rules as he goes along in life. God does not work that way, at least for those of us who believe in and rely on the Bible. You can pray for him, but it is he who has chosen to reject God's truth in favor of man's traditions. Therefore your prayers may not be answered. You see, God tells us that, for those that reject Him (regardless of their reasons), He will send them strong delusion so that they will hold even stronger to their false beliefs.

You can feel sorry for him, but understand that it is he alone who must ultimately change his ways. God makes it clear that He does not want those of us who do not want Him.

Matthan <J><

 

[ZiSunka]

He said that he doesn't believe that everyone is going to hell (or that there even is a hell) since #1 God is perfect and does not make mistakes. Therefore He would not need hell...

Hell isn't a trash can for God's mistakes, it is the reward for living a godless, faithless life. God doesn't throw people away into hell, they choose to go there themselves.

 

[AJ]

Hell isn't a trash can for God's mistakes, it is the reward for living a godless, faithless life. God doesn't throw people away into hell, they choose to go there themselves.

AMEN!

 

[ps139]

Gold Dragon, did Rahner claim that all people go to heaven?

 

[ps139]

He said that he doesn't believe that everyone is going to hell (or that there even is a hell) since #1 God is perfect and does not make mistakes. Therefore He would not need hell...

I think this would only make sense if we had no free will... as in God decided we were mistakes, so He decided to send us to hell. In fact its the exact opposite, He saw OUR mistake and He sent Himself down to die for us so we can go to Heaven.
Perhaps your friend has misinformed views of the basic truths of Christianity?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Gold Dragon, did Rahner claim that all people go to heaven?

I have only read summaries of Rahner's work but I think his theology was primarily to deal with the conflict between compassion and exclusivism without resorting to universalism.

I think it is important to recognize the uncertainty in Rahner's position. That it may be possible for some outside the Christian faith to have a chance of salvation.

I consider Rahner's position to be one worth considering but definitely debatable.

 

[ZiSunka]

I think it is important to recognize the uncertainty in Rahner's position. That it may be possible for some outside the Christian faith to have a chance of salvation.

I consider Rahner's position to be one worth considering but definitely debatable.

Doesn't Romans 1 apply:
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves.
19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. 20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.

And Genesis 15:
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

People are saved by faith in God and God's attributes can be seen through nature, therefore, everyone who sees nature can know God, therefore no one has an excuse for not getting saved by having faith in God.

 

[newname]

consider what God says,

Man can not be drawn to God, until God draws him,

Faith is given to those who are "called" by God, they are given the understanding that truth is truth, when one hears the truth by another, his heart receives it or it doesn't,

we can not convince anyone that truth is truth, we speak the truth and if they hear, they hear and if they don't accept it then they don't,

our job is to speak whatever understanding we have and if it's accepted we continue to fellowship and teach with the person,

this is why God tells us that we are not to debate the truth, it's God that give the increase, the understanding to believe,

if one is "called" to the kingdom of God, then that one will hear you, it's truth that we speak by the power of God, not by our power, or man's wisdom (1 Corinthians)

trust God, that he will give those who are "called" the understanding to hear,

remember, not all are "called" to the kingdom of God, "many are called, few are chosen",

those that are "called" by God, will hear truth, God makes sure of that,

we try to do God's work without trusting his ability to save who are to be saved,

newname

 

[Ave Maria]

I have a couple of sites that would be good for you to study on to help you find good answers for him. The first is an excellent apologetics site, the second is another apologetics site, and the third is a site with free religious booklets that you can either have shipped to you totally free of charge or view them online.

http://www.christiananswers.net/

http://www.carm.org/

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/

God Bless and I hope this helps! You might also want to check out the following site directed at college students:

http://www.everystudent.com/