Salvation possible after death?

[Neenie]

Recently I come across a testimony by an ex-atheist “Howard Storm”. In1985 he become ill, died and went to hell, His NDE is well known by many. While he was in hell he prayed and Jesus come to him, healed him and forgiven him. He has been a committed Christian ever since.

http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping322.htm

Is it possible for others in hell to call out to God and find him? If not, why did it work for Howard storm?

 

[Macca]

This is either a near death experience or it is something else.
Often people experiencing NDE have"visions" of the after life. Whether they actually die is very questionable.
A very real vision of hell and of Jesus coming and touching a person would surely have a profound effect on them.
This is the difference with people who have NDE and simply see a bright light and feel overwhelming love; but they do not change their relationship with or attitude toward God.These people have not had a life changing experiencing as Howard Storm has had.
This is my opinion anyway.

 

[Rion]

I wouldn't say he was truly dead. Whether he was in hell or was given a vision, I'd say Christ was involved.

 

[Neenie]

This is the difference with people who have NDE and simply see a bright light and feel overwhelming love; but they do not change their relationship with or attitude toward God.These people have not had a life changing experiencing as Howard Storm has had.
This is my opinion anyway.

Thank you…I guess some who claim to have had an NDE and seen a light, and do not change, could have met a counterfeit God? 2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light

 

[BrotherDave]

Hell is the condition of being under the wrath of God. Every unsaved person, in that sense, is in hell. That is where Christ finds us when He saves us. He finds us under the wrath of God and brings us out from under the wrath of God.

When we die, our eternal destiny is absolutely determined. If we are a child of God when we die, our soul leaves our body and in our soul we go to live and reign with Christ in heaven because we were given eternal life at the moment Christ saved us (II Corinthians 5:8). We were given a brand-new resurrected soul (John 3:3, Philippians 1).

But an unsaved person who dies has not received eternal life in his soul, so he cannot go into heaven when he dies (or ever), but his soul will separate from his body. His body will be put in the grave just as the believer’s body is put in the grave when he dies, but the unbeliever’s soul goes to a place of silence (Psalm 115:17, Rev. 20:5). He has no conscious existence until judgment day when he will stand as a whole personality at the judgment throne of God (John 5:28-29). The unsaved cannot go directly to hell when they die because they have not been officially judged yet; they will be judged on judgment day, the last day, when Christ returns (Revelation 3:10).

As you mentioned, Satan comes an angel of light and he will/does decieve many. That is why we have to test everything against what the Bible says. It alone is the word of God.

In Christ's service,
David

 

[Edial]

Recently I come across a testimony by an ex-atheist “Howard Storm”. In1985 he become ill, died and went to hell, His NDE is well known by many. While he was in hell he prayed and Jesus come to him, healed him and forgiven him. He has been a committed Christian ever since.

http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping322.htm

Is it possible for others in hell to call out to God and find him? If not, why did it work for Howard storm?

Look at this text ...
JNH 2:1 Then Jonah prayed to the LORD his God from the stomach of the fish, 2 and he said,
"I called out of my distress to the LORD,
And He answered me.
I cried for help from the depth of Sheol;
Thou didst hear my voice. 3 "For Thou hadst cast me into the deep,
Into the heart of the seas,
And the current engulfed me.
All Thy breakers and billows passed over me. 4 "So I said, `I have been expelled from Thy sight.
Nevertheless I will look again toward Thy holy temple.' 5 "Water encompassed me to the point of death.
The great deep engulfed me,
Weeds were wrapped around my head. 6 "I descended to the roots of the mountains.
The earth with its bars was around me forever,
But Thou hast brought up my life from the pit, O LORD my God.
7 "While I was fainting away,
I remembered the LORD;
And my prayer came to Thee,
Into Thy holy temple. 8 "Those who regard vain idols
Forsake their faithfulness, 9 But I will sacrifice to Thee
With the voice of thanksgiving.
That which I have vowed I will pay.
Salvation is from the LORD."

V.1 Jonah is praying from inside the fish and is telling the story of him drowning before the fish swallowed him.

vv. 3-6 describe him drowning.

v.7 states that while he was already fainting away he remembered the Lord and began praying.

v.2 is the summary of how he got saved.
It states that he is in Sheol (the World of the Deaparted Dead) and cries out from it to the Lord.

Conclusion:
It appears that while he was drowning he started praying.
Then he died and went to Sheol (but continued crying out while in Sheol).

Then the fish swallowed him and he came back to life and later on the fish vomited him onto the shore.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[DeaconDean]

I hate to quote apcrypha books, but in this one instance this one quote says it all:

"Let us therefore repent, while we are yet upon the earth: for we are as clay in the hand of the artificer. For as the potter, if he make a vessel, and it be turned amiss in his hands, or broken, again forms it anew; but if he has gone so far as to throw it into the furnace of fire, he cannot more bring any remedy to it. So we, while we are in this world, should repent with our whole heart for whatsoever evil we have done in the flesh; while we have yet the time of repentance, that we may be saved by the Lord. For after we shall have departed out of this world, we shall no longer be able to confess our sins or repent in the other." -2 Clement 3:14-16

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Ino]

Somewhere I read about a buddhist monk who almost died. while he was in his near-death state, he saw hell. He realizes that buddhism wasn't the right answer and apparently is currently a christian.
Now, bear in mind, I don't remember where this story is from, so it is probably just that: a story.

I'm not even sure why I'm posting it, just something that came into my mind.
As for being saved from hell, that is impossible. Remember lazarus and the rich man? It's more likely a vision God gave him.

 

[Tonks]

While I agree with your post DD, even Catholics consider 2 Clement to be spurious.

 

[DeaconDean]

While I agree with your post DD, even Catholics consider 2 Clement to be spurious.

Thank you brother. I was given a book called "The Lost Books of the New Testament" and 1 & 2 Clement are included in this. I started reading these two books and found they are full of OT quotes and Clement's theology smacks sqaurely of Pauline theology. I thought it was rather good.

It does make good reading.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Jessica01]

Recently I come across a testimony by an ex-atheist “Howard Storm”. In1985 he become ill, died and went to hell, His NDE is well known by many. While he was in hell he prayed and Jesus come to him, healed him and forgiven him. He has been a committed Christian ever since.

http://www.visionsofjesuschrist.com/weeping322.htm

Is it possible for others in hell to call out to God and find him? If not, why did it work for Howard storm?

Was this fellow receiving CPR when he did and went to hell? With CPR, blood does get to the brain, through the person is not alert or conscious at all. I believe that is what is behind NDE.


As for Sheol and Lazarus and Abraham's bosum as mentioned inthis thread, I think that all could be better understood if you consider that those who died in faith prior to the resurrection did go to Sheol (Abraham's Bosum) and were not spiritually received into heaven til the death and resurrection of Christ. Since then, we who die in Christ are spiritually received in heaven. The bodily resurrection is yet to be.

(Those who believe in soul sleep will disagree with me).

 

[Van]

Hi Edial, I have a different take on Jonah 1:17-2:10. We agree that Jonah was tossed alive into the sea, and perhaps agree that Jonah was alive and had not drown when he was swallowed by the great fish. Now from inside the belly of the fish Jonah prayed, so at least initially the text allows the idea that Jonah was alive when he prayed to God from inside the fish.

But the text says from the depths of Sheol Jonah cryed out. So if Sheol is thought to be the neitherworld where the departed souls of the physically dead go, then this says Jonah was physically dead when he cryed out. But Sheol carries with it two other meanings. One, Sheol means grave, or the physical place where the body is placed, and if we adopt this meaning then the verse is equvical, perhaps Jonah is only saying his body, though still alive, is in a grave, a place of the dead. And finally, Sheol can mean a state of mind, for if we are hopeless and despondent, we are in the state of mind called Sheol, and this is the meaning I believe best fits the context of our passage. Similarly, I think the line where God brings Jonah's life up from the pit refers to being swallowed while located at the bottom of the sea - the pit - and then the great fish heading back up to near the surface.

Note that verse 7 says that while Jonah's life was ebbing away, he prayed and he certainly would have known he was in a bad way. Now since his life was ebbing away, I think it definitely follows that Jonah died while in the belly of the fish, because he was a "type" for Christ. And when the Lord commanded the fish to vomit Jonah up on dry land, I think God brought him back to life, again foreshadowing the death and resurrection of Christ.

But according to this view, no support is provided for a second bite at the apple after we physically die. This view then is consistent with Luke 16:19-31 where the plea of the person after he had died does not alter his condition nor the condition of anyone else.

 

[jjoel]

If salvation was possible after death, then the man in Christ's parable (the rich man) who went to hell and begged up into heaven that he could at least warn his friends/family about hell. Well, why didn't he beg to go to heaven himself?
Sorry salvation is something that should be decided here on earth. Honestly unless you have a really hard heart, your decision should be pretty easy.

 

[Edial]

Hi Edial, I have a different take on Jonah 1:17-2:10. We agree that Jonah was tossed alive into the sea, and perhaps agree that Jonah was alive and had not drown when he was swallowed by the great fish. Now from inside the belly of the fish Jonah prayed, so at least initially the text allows the idea that Jonah was alive when he prayed to God from inside the fish.

But the text says from the depths of Sheol Jonah cryed out. So if Sheol is thought to be the neitherworld where the departed souls of the physically dead go, then this says Jonah was physically dead when he cryed out. But Sheol carries with it two other meanings. One, Sheol means grave, or the physical place where the body is placed, and if we adopt this meaning then the verse is equvical, perhaps Jonah is only saying his body, though still alive, is in a grave, a place of the dead. And finally, Sheol can mean a state of mind, for if we are hopeless and despondent, we are in the state of mind called Sheol, and this is the meaning I believe best fits the context of our passage. Similarly, I think the line where God brings Jonah's life up from the pit refers to being swallowed while located at the bottom of the sea - the pit - and then the great fish heading back up to near the surface.

Note that verse 7 says that while Jonah's life was ebbing away, he prayed and he certainly would have known he was in a bad way. Now since his life was ebbing away, I think it definitely follows that Jonah died while in the belly of the fish, because he was a "type" for Christ. And when the Lord commanded the fish to vomit Jonah up on dry land, I think God brought him back to life, again foreshadowing the death and resurrection of Christ.

But according to this view, no support is provided for a second bite at the apple after we physically die. This view then is consistent with Luke 16:19-31 where the plea of the person after he had died does not alter his condition nor the condition of anyone else.

But Sheol always means the place of the departed dead.
Grave is kevar in Hebrew.

So looking technically at the text it does follow that he was drowning and began praying while fainting (as his life was ebbing away).
Then, we see that he is crying out from Sheol.
So, it appears that he began praying while drowning, then died and wound up in Sheol and continued praying while dead from Sheol.

Then the Lord sent a fish that swallowed him, he became alive while inside the fish and then was carried by that fish to shore where it vomitted Jonah.

But he difinitely cried out from Sheol, that is the world of the departed dead.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Van]

Well we disagree on the meaning of Sheol. Please consider Psalm 116:3 and see if Sheol might not encompass the idea of dread and hopelessness of despondant folks. Or how about Psalm 86:13, was David dead and in the place of departed souls? Nope.
So while my view may be mistaken, it is consistent with the accepted meanings of Sheol. Ryrie commenting of Psalm 30:3 which says "O Lord, Thou hast brought up my soul from Sheol" indicates this means "God delivered him (David) from the brink of death."

So he cryed out while his life was ebbing, not after he died according to my perhaps mistaken view, which is consistent with Luke 16:19-31, which teaches there is not second bite at the apple.

 

[Edial]

Well we disagree on the meaning of Sheol.

We do disagree.
I also thought at one time that Sheol was grave.
However, I know now that Sheol means the place of the departed dead and was never meant to be grave in Hebrew.

Please consider Psalm 116:3 and see if Sheol might not encompass the idea of dread and hopelessness of despondant folks.

PS 116:1 I LOVE the LORD, because He hears
My voice and my supplications.
2 Because He has inclined His ear to me,
Therefore I shall call upon Him as long as I live.
3 The cords of death encompassed me,
And the terrors of Sheol came upon me;
I found distress and sorrow.
4 Then I called upon the name of the LORD:

In that case he never died yet, but was very close.
Cords of death are around him and like it is about to pull him in.
And he senses the terrors of Sheol.

He was very close to death.

Same as here ...

PS 18:4 The cords of death encompassed me,
And the torrents of ungodliness terrified me.
5 The cords of Sheol surrounded me;
The snares of death confronted me.
6 In my distress I called upon the LORD,
And cried to my God for help;
He heard my voice out of His temple,
And my cry for help before Him came into His ears.

We see the cords of death and Sheol kind of curling around him.
And snare of death confronted him in v.5.

He was very close to dying.

Or how about Psalm 86:13, was David dead and in the place of departed souls? Nope. .

PS 86:11 Teach me Thy way, O LORD;
I will walk in Thy truth;
Unite my heart to fear Thy name. 12 I will give thanks to Thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart,
And will glorify Thy name forever. 13 For Thy lovingkindness toward me is great,
And Thou hast delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol.

"From" (4480) means either "from the side of" or "out of".

Since we know that David was close to death in the verses above and that the cords of Sheol were around him, the likely understanding of "from" (4480) is that he was saved from the side of Sheol. He was on the brink of it.

So while my view may be mistaken, it is consistent with the accepted meanings of Sheol. Ryrie commenting of Psalm 30:3 which says "O Lord, Thou hast brought up my soul from Sheol" indicates this means "God delivered him (David) from the brink of death."

That is correct. Devid was at the brink of death and Sheol.

So he cryed out while his life was ebbing, not after he died according to my perhaps mistaken view, ...

It is not a matter of having a mistaken view or not, but that of research into plain text.
My view might also be mistaken, but I do not see other references in disproving that.

In context of Jonah text, (life ebbing away) he did cry out from inside the Sheol.

...which is consistent with Luke 16:19-31, which teaches there is not second bite at the apple.

Rich man was in Hades/Sheol and could not get to Abraham's Bosom because there was a great barrier between the two (the schism).

But Abraham's Bosom was not heaven, and that schism does not run between heaven and Sheol.
Between Abraham's Bosom and Hades, yes, but not between heaven and Hades/Sheol.

At the OT time heaven was generally closed altogether for the masses and Christ opened the access after the cross.

And concerning the "2nd bite at the apple".

We know that if one rejects Christ here he will not see eternal life.

But if one never had a chance to reject the gospel of Christ (never heard it, or was taught a "bad" gospel), he still appears to have a "1st chance at the apple" while in the Sheol.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Van]

Hi Edial, we are done. Your post 16 makes my case. Jonah was very close to dying. And contextually Psalm 86:13 refers to the lowest part of Sheol, and therefore the idea that the idea is next to but not in Sheol seems a reach. Thanks Van

 

[Edial]

Hi Edial, we are done. Your post 16 makes my case. Jonah was very close to dying. And contextually Psalm 86:13 refers to the lowest part of Sheol, and therefore the idea that the idea is next to but not in Sheol seems a reach. Thanks Van

OK.
Whether Jonah was close to dying or died is not clear.
What is clear is that he called from the depth of Sheol.
And in Hebrew "depth" is like a belly of a pregnant woman. From the belly of Sheol.

In cases of David however, he was close to death, since the cords of death and of Sheol just entanged him with an idea of pulling him into the belly of Sheol.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[ADRose]

I think that visions can be decieving. Based on the word of God, he couldn't have really been in hell because hell is a destination of no return. Maybe his vision was given to him by the Holy Spirit, to show him his future if he continued on that path, which caused him to repent. It's easy for Christians to get wrapped up in emotion and visions, when we need to rely on the Word of God and what it says.

 

[DInsight]

Hell is the condition of being under the wrath of God. Every unsaved person, in that sense, is in hell. That is where Christ finds us when He saves us. He finds us under the wrath of God and brings us out from under the wrath of God.

When we die, our eternal destiny is absolutely determined. If we are a child of God when we die, our soul leaves our body and in our soul we go to live and reign with Christ in heaven because we were given eternal life at the moment Christ saved us (II Corinthians 5:8). We were given a brand-new resurrected soul (John 3:3, Philippians 1).

But an unsaved person who dies has not received eternal life in his soul, so he cannot go into heaven when he dies (or ever), but his soul will separate from his body. His body will be put in the grave just as the believer’s body is put in the grave when he dies, but the unbeliever’s soul goes to a place of silence (Psalm 115:17, Rev. 20:5). He has no conscious existence until judgment day when he will stand as a whole personality at the judgment throne of God (John 5:28-29). The unsaved cannot go directly to hell when they die because they have not been officially judged yet; they will be judged on judgment day, the last day, when Christ returns (Revelation 3:10).

As you mentioned, Satan comes an angel of light and he will/does decieve many. That is why we have to test everything against what the Bible says. It alone is the word of God.

In Christ's service,
David

BrotherDave:

How do you reconcile the two emboldened statements in your post quoted above?

In one you say the unsaved is in hell and Christ comes to save; in another you say the unsaved cannot go to hell because he is yet judged. How come?

Be blessed!