Salvation in Islam.

[mo.mentum]

These few verses of the Qur'an sum up pretty nicely who is accepted as a believer and who will be saved in the End. Your thoughts?



62. Those who believe (in the Qurán), and those who follow the Jewish Scriptures, and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 63. And remember We took your covenant (O Children of Israel) and We raised above you the Mount (Sinai). Saying: "Hold fast to that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein, so that you may become among the Pious"
[Qur'an:2:The Hefer]





68. Say (O Muhammad): "O People of the Book! (ie: Jews and Christians) You have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Torah, the Gospel, and all the Revelation that has come to you from Your Lord." It is the Revelation that comes to you from Your Lord that increases in most of them (disbelievers/pagans/atheists) their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But don't sorrow over a people without Faith.

69. Those who believe (in the Qurán), and those who follow the Jewish Scriptures, and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

[Qur'an:5:The Table Spread]



So the requirements are simple:

1. Believe in God

2. Believe in the Last Day/Resurrection

3. Do righteous deeds and work good on the Earth

Quite simple. This is the same Message that came to Abraham the True. Our Monotheist Father.

 

[Kelly]

I'd say the biggest difference between Islam and Christianity is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as the son of God, and that accepting Jesus as your saviour, that he died for your sins, is the way to heaven. If I am not mistaken, Jesus is just another prophet to Muslims, not the son of God. There's the rub.

 

[mo.mentum]

Ya that has been a point of dispute between the two great religions.

From what i understand...With the concept of Original Sin, then you need the concept of Atonement, hence you need Jesus Christ as a personal saviour who will intercede with God on your behalf. Hence you need to accept him as a the Son of God.

In Islam, there is no Original Sin. Adam and Eve were forgiven for their overstepping the bounds, but sent to Earth anyway 'cause that was the plan. Every person is responsible for their actions/sins and only your good works can save you, and save humanity as a whole. Because everyone would then compete in good works.

So in the end, there is no need for the Church or Papal authority or Confession, because you have a direct link to God, He is accessible yet transcendental. Emphasis is to put Him above all and setup no partners with Him.

 

[radorth]

From what i understand...With the concept of Original Sin, then you need the concept of Atonement, hence you need Jesus Christ as a personal saviour who will intercede with God on your behalf. Hence you need to accept him as a the Son of God.

Oh, I'm sure any kind of sin will require atonement, whether "original" or not.

Again you are effectively accusing Christians of making up things to fit some sort of personal belief system, when actually the OT shouts about a messiah coming to take away sins, remove sins, wash away sins or whatever you want to call it. The New Testament makes absolutely no sense without the atonement or the resurrection, both of which Islam suspiciously denies.

More likely Islam is simply a "me-too" religion which was created to deny the atonement. It is obvious Islam is useless if Jesus died to "take away the sin of the world" and was raised and righteousness is imputed to us.

Hence Islam needs Jesus NOT to be crucified, and Muslims are forced to deny a fact cast in historical stone, as even some atheists have noted.

Rad

 

[radorth]

So in the end, there is no need for the Church or Papal authority or Confession, because you have a direct link to God,

On that we can basically agree, except of course Jesus is the complete expression of God without which we could not know God completely or have intimate fellowship through the Spirit.

Rad

 

[mo.mentum]

Oh, I'm sure any kind of sin will require atonement, whether "original" or not.

Again you are effectively accusing Christians of making up things to fit some sort of personal belief system, when actually the OT shouts about a messiah coming to take away sins, remove sins, wash away sins or whatever you want to call it. The New Testament makes absolutely no sense without the atonement or the resurrection, both of which Islam suspiciously denies.

More likely Islam is simply a "me-too" religion which was created to deny the atonement. It is obvious Islam is useless if Jesus died to "take away the sin of the world" and was raised and righteousness is imputed to us.

Hence Islam needs Jesus NOT to be crucified, and Muslims are forced to deny a fact cast in historical stone, as even some atheists have noted.

Rad

heheheehe you're funny.

You keep trying to compare apples and oranges, in this thread and others. So whatever

I told you, to receive atonement, we just need to ask it of Him. As long as our good deeds outweigh the bad in the end, we're clear. Simple.

I haven't disregarded the Christian view in this thread, I was merely outlining the differences. You're still arguing with me from our other thread, keep them seperate.

We know that OT spok eof the Messiah. We believe in the Messiah because of our Scripture too. Can you just let us believe in our version and you have yours? You want the Messiah to be Son of God and that fits your Scripture better. To us, God can have no partners, nor does He beget, nor is He begotten. If this weren't true, for us, then the Qur'an would make no sense.

"me-too" religion? lol. if it makes you feel better to think of it that way, go ahead

You can't argue apples and orange. But you can sure list the differences and that's what I'm doing, stick with the program.

 

[Mephster]

Radorth:

I'm wondering: what is your denomination - don't get overboard on me and spit fire at me. I'm just asking to know. You, honestly, sound Seventh Day Adventist sometimes.... Obviously, you're not RCC. So... what denomination do you consider yourself? If you say that you are of no denomination, I will retort that that is untrue, because there is no such thing except for being some sort of religious hermit without community fellowship....a fringe case, really.

I have several reasons for asking.

Thanks,
Meph

 

[Knight Of Templar]

So, Momentum, what are your views about who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell?
Do you think Muslims, Christians and Jews go to Heaven, or do you think just Muslims go to Heaven and "to Hell" with the rest?

 

[mo.mentum]

So, Momentum, what are your views about who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell?
Do you think Muslims, Christians and Jews go to Heaven, or do you think just Muslims go to Heaven and "to Hell" with the rest?

I thought I was clear But I'll re-iterate.

62. Those who believe (in the Qurán), and those who follow the Jewish Scriptures, and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 63. And remember We took your covenant (O Children of Israel) and We raised above you the Mount (Sinai). Saying: "Hold fast to that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein, so that you may become among the Pious" [Qur'an:2:The Hefer]


68. Say (O Muhammad): "O People of the Book! (ie: Jews and Christians) You have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Torah, the Gospel, and all the Revelation that has come to you from Your Lord." It is the Revelation that comes to you from Your Lord that increases in most of them (disbelievers/pagans/atheists) their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But don't sorrow over a people without Faith. 69. Those who believe (in the Qurán), and those who follow the Jewish Scriptures, and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. [Qur'an:5:The Table Spread]


So the requirements are simple:
1. Believe in God
2. Believe in the Last Day/Resurrection
3. Do righteous deeds and work good on the Earth

God is Wise and Merciful. He won't refuse Heaven for someone just because they didn't accept Christ as His Son, which is blasphemous for non-Christians. Or they didn't acknowledge Muhammad as the Final Prophet, who is ridiculed by non-Muslims.

He judges us solely on our actions and our belief in Him. Everything else is inconsequential and only serves to cause divide between the people.

The idea of Tolerance and Mercy is rampant in Islam. If today the Muslims don't live by those ideals, it's because they've let go of their religion and only pay lip service to the rituals. They're not True Muslims.

 

[desi]

The idea of Tolerance and Mercy is rampant in Islam. If today the Muslims don't live by those ideals, it's because they've let go of their religion and only pay lip service to the rituals. They're not True Muslims.

If they are not true Muslims who are they coming from Muslim countries? Wouldn't they be condemned by Al Jazeera if they were acting against Muslim teachings?

 

[mo.mentum]

If they are not true Muslims who are they coming from Muslim countries? Wouldn't they be condemned by Al Jazeera if they were acting against Muslim teachings?

Again, a very good question. I praise God for people like you, inquisitive and sincere


Question 1: If they are not true Muslims who are they coming from Muslim countries?

First i need to clear up this notion of a "Muslim Country". There are presently NO COUNTRIES which can be qualified as a an "ISLAMIC STATE" as described to us by the prophet, and as applied by many of his successors throughout the last 1400 years. Depending on the centuries, the social situation, economic conditions, political stability etc.. the "ISLAMIC STATE" was indeed applied to varying degrees. But today, NOTHING is even CLOSE.

The Islamic State is primarily the collective body of the Ummah (Worldwide Muslim Community), ruled by the Caliph. This political system is called the Caliphate. In this system, a central governing power maintains several Muslim empires in cohesion. This government is usually ruled by "Shura" or public consultation, ie: elected/nominated local representatives. This body also helped to regulate and police Heretical views. Social Justice and Minority protection were basic tenets of this Islamic State, the Caliphate.

The last True Islamic State by this working definition was the Ottoman Empire. This system was brought down in Turkey after WWI by Mustafa Kamal, aka Ataturk. The remaining Muslim countries were eventually invaded by Europeans powers and then cut up into wierd looking countries as you can see on a map. Split up into smaller countries, the Muslims lost the full application of Qur'anic laws and were subjected to "State" law. But we all know these as Dictators, Kings, Presidents who get "99%" of the votes, etc.. So our power is spent and there is no more religious guidance. So local imams and mullah try to do their best. Some became militant due to several factors in history, such as the loss of Al-Quds "The Holy City" (ie Jerusalem), Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, US troops on Saudi soil, Bosnia/Chechnya/Yugoslavia/Uzbekistan/Lebanon wars and other things. They decided to pick up arms. God will be their Judge.

SO! Just like not all Christians are practicing, neither are all Muslims. But not exactly the same way. Where as Christians, who've stopped believing, become atheists; in our part of the world it lead to the other extreme, well an extreme interpretation of the Qur'an and strict religion. Those who wish to commit violence in the name of God are way off the Straight Path. God has only permitted us to fight in self-defence on our own lands, or to remove oppression in neighboring lands.

Islam isn't applied today since part of its application is the creation of a unified Muslim state that brings peace and doesn't allow the followers of God to commit attrocities.

I've chosen the Straigth Path, the Path of Peace, the Path to God. So that my words would help bring understanding between us and you, not my sword. I despire the sword.


2. Wouldn't they be condemned by Al Jazeera if they were acting against Muslim teachings?

Hehehe Al Jazeera is just a news channel. Plus, almost every media outlet in the Muslim world is state owned, hence controlled. They limit religious talk in order to keep control on their internal rivals' right of free speach. Don't worry, there are many talk shows where many opinions are televised, but the predominant one is that such "terrorist" acts are not part of Islamic Aqedah ("Creed") and form an Abomination. In fact, no ideology can be a religion unless it advocated peace and mercy between God's creatures, and Islam
certainly does.

As explained above. The Muslim centers of Religious authority like the Al-Azhar mosque of Egypt or even Mecca, have become mute and usually follow the official line. Sermons are monitored, people are watched. It's horrible....

I hope i answered your questions in a complete way I'm sure I left out a few things.

 

[peaceful soul]

mo.mentum

These few verses of the Qur'an sum up pretty nicely who is accepted as a believer and who will be saved in the End. Your thoughts?



62.Those who believe (in the Qurán), and those who follow the Jewish Scriptures, and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 63. And remember We took your covenant (O Children of Israel) and We raised above you the Mount (Sinai). Saying: "Hold fast to that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein, so that you may become among the Pious"
[Qur'an:2:The Hefer][\QUOTE]

Do you realize that Christians can't and don't belive in Allah. By doing so, they would be commiting spiritual suicide. Jesus died and was resurrected, which goes against Allah's word. Jesus gave Christians their righteousness via faith and not by works. I don't think Allah is that tolerant and would contradict Himself by allowing Christians in the salvation pool. Houston. We have a problem!!!

68. Say (O Muhammad): "O People of the Book! (ie: Jews and Christians) You have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the Torah, the Gospel, and all the Revelation that has come to you from Your Lord." It is the Revelation that comes to you from Your Lord that increases in most of them (disbelievers/pagans/atheists) their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But don't sorrow over a people without Faith.

Faith in what, Allah? or in Judaism and Christianity?

69. Those who believe (in the Qurán), and those who follow the Jewish Scriptures, and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

[Qur'an:5:The Table Spread]



So the requirements are simple:

1. Believe in God

2. Believe in the Last Day/Resurrection

3. Do righteous deeds and work good on the Earth

Quite simple. This is the same Message that came to Abraham the True. Our Monotheist Father.

For us Christians the requirements are not the same so that would eliminate us from the favor of Allah.

1. Belief in God and faith in Him and His word (inlcuding NT)

2. Belief and faith according to Bible and not the Quran (makes a big difference). Belief is easy, but faith requires one to act upon that belief and sustain it with confidence in God's word, i.e. what He says, He will do.

3. All righteous deeds that God accepts come from the gifts of the Holy Spirit and not from ourselves. Anyone who does good works by their self will and as a testimony to God, dispeleases God and are: (1) sinning in the process and (2) therefore, do not obtain God's righteousness. The sinful (man) can not do what the sinless (God) can, i.e. make perfect that which isn't. Deeds of one's self will are commendable and are a good humanistic goal. Since they were not produced in the way that God says, they are fruitless in God's eyes; therefore, you get no immediate or eternal rewards. That's what religion does; it tries in futility to do it by human standards when God says otherwise. Can you spell rebellion?

 

[bouncer]

62. Those who believe (in the Qurán), and those who follow the Jewish Scriptures, and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. 63. And remember We took your covenant (O Children of Israel) and We raised above you the Mount (Sinai). Saying: "Hold fast to that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein, so that you may become among the Pious" [Qur'an:2:The Hefer]

Hi everyone, just thought i'd jump in :

From the above it looks like anyone from any of the monotheistic religions will go to heaven ?
a) We all believe in (one) God.
b) We believe in the last day.
c) We do good work (well, we try )

So...what is the point of Islam then ? How exactly does it replace Christianity or Judaism ?

I'm sure if I were to talk to Muslims other than yourself I'd have a different version of salvation.....

 

[mo.mentum]

mo.mentum

Do you realize that Christians can't and don't belive in Allah. By doing so, they would be commiting spiritual suicide. Jesus died and was resurrected, which goes against Allah's word. Jesus gave Christians their righteousness via faith and not by works. I don't think Allah is that tolerant and would contradict Himself by allowing Christians in the salvation pool. Houston. We have a problem!!!

I'm not saying this is what you have to believe in order to be saved. But by our standards, you need only believe in God (as Muslim, Christian or Jew), and work righteous deeds. So you're included in salvation, whether you know it or not.

Faith in what, Allah? or in Judaism and Christianity?

Faith in God. Allah is but the Arabic Name that corresponds to "The God". You musthave faith in Him, and trust in His Scripture, no matter what your creed is.

For us Christians the requirements are not the same so that would eliminate us from the favor of Allah.

I know you don't have the same requirements. But say on Judgement Day we discover that not all was what we believed in our lives, well then you know you'll be saved by God anyway.

3. All righteous deeds that God accepts come from the gifts of the Holy Spirit and not from ourselves. Anyone who does good works by their self will and as a testimony to God, dispeleases God and are: (1) sinning in the process and (2) therefore, do not obtain God's righteousness. The sinful (man) can not do what the sinless (God) can, i.e. make perfect that which isn't. Deeds of one's self will are commendable and are a good humanistic goal. Since they were not produced in the way that God says, they are fruitless in God's eyes; therefore, you get no immediate or eternal rewards. That's what religion does; it tries in futility to do it by human standards when God says otherwise. Can you spell rebellion?

That's too strict and dictatorial for me. I don't see God's Justice in this. I see more of a patronizing deity. I like being responsible for my own actions and my own sins, and to get forgiveness, i have but to ask.

Anyway, the best good deeds are the ones we keep to ourselves, which only God knows about.

 

[Mephster]

Mo.mentum,

I've been reading and talking to folks where I am at.... and some have suggested that salvation of Christians and Jews may be one of those "veiled topics." Others have suggested that on the Last Day, Christians and Jews will be 'in line' behind their prophet and will be judged first through that.

Any thoughts on this? And how it might play into all of your posts (which, btw, were quite informative) ?

Mephy

 

[mo.mentum]

Hi everyone, just thought i'd jump in :

From the above it looks like anyone from any of the monotheistic religions will go to heaven ?
a) We all believe in (one) God.
b) We believe in the last day.
c) We do good work (well, we try )

So...what is the point of Islam then ? How exactly does it replace Christianity or Judaism ?

I'm sure if I were to talk to Muslims other than yourself I'd have a different version of salvation.....

Well have you compared Salvation in Christianity to this concept of Salvation? Right away the difference itself creates a need for Islam. Otherwise the whole of humanity will be in Hell.

And Muslim scholars do agree on this, since it's taken straight out of the corner and is quite clear to what it means. There is no interpretation here.

Islam is a state of being, a complete economic/political/social system, not striclty a religion. (which is obviously not applied in our day) It's a state of Submission to God.

Why is it needed? God tells us in the Qur'an that its purpose was to summarize all the Messages that the prophets of Old brought, and to validate them and their Scriptures.. Its goal is to also give mankind a complete way of life in Submission to Him. A message for all poeples, of all creeds, of all periods of time.

PS: It doesn't _replace_ Judaism or Christianity. Who better to explain these points than Dr. John L. Esposito. A non-muslim who's written over 25 books on the subject and is the chief editor for the Oxford Encyclopedia of Islam

What is Islam's relation with Judaism and Christianity?
http://www.quran.ca/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=93

Also, you should check this out from another author.
Islam and its policy of tolerance
http://www.quran.ca/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=91

 

[Mephster]

Mo.mentum,

What do you think of Esposito? I haven't read any of his stuff. I've read a lot, too, but I have always hesitated when it came to him. Have you read any of his works? If so, which ones do you recommend? How come?

Thanks,
Mephy

 

[mo.mentum]

Mo.mentum,

I've been reading and talking to folks where I am at.... and some have suggested that salvation of Christians and Jews may be one of those "veiled topics." Others have suggested that on the Last Day, Christians and Jews will be 'in line' behind their prophet and will be judged first through that.

Any thoughts on this? And how it might play into all of your posts (which, btw, were quite informative) ?

Mephy

Ya I remember hearing these things as a kid. That every faith will be standing behind its prophet. But this no longer makes sense to me since in Islam, all of God's prophets were bringing the same religion, the Ideology of Submission to Him Alone.

What I have found out is that God judges mainly on our deeds and a belief in Him. The only sin that cannot be pardoned after our death is polytheism, but all can be forgiven if we ask Him directly and sincerly, with no intercessor because we need none.

"And indeed We have created man, and We know what his ownself whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein" Qur'an 50:16

It becomes a "veiled topic" because people really don't know much about deep concepts in Islam. They're just happy to know how to pray and the other pillars of Islam. Scholars are happy to talk about God's Word and explain it. These verses cannot be any clearer and aren't contradicted anywhere else. afaik

 

[mo.mentum]

Mo.mentum,

What do you think of Esposito? I haven't read any of his stuff. I've read a lot, too, but I have always hesitated when it came to him. Have you read any of his works? If so, which ones do you recommend? How come?

Thanks,
Mephy

When i started my quest for Islam, he was one of the first scholars I got to know, along with Karen Armstrong. They are both very well educated i'd say and are impartial, they give credit where it's due, and give criticism where it's deserved. So i like them.

I've read from Esposito:
- Islam: The Straight Path
- The Islamic Threat: Myth or Reality
- Oxford History of Islam (quite big)

The History of God by Armstrong is excellent too.

 

[Mephster]

When i started my quest for Islam, he was one of the first scholars I got to know, along with Karen Armstrong. They are both very well educated i'd say and are impartial, they give credit where it's due, and give criticism where it's deserved. So i like them.

I've read from Esposito:
- Islam: The Straight Path
- The Islamic Threat: Myth or Reality
- Oxford History of Islam (quite big)

The History of God by Armstrong is excellent too.

Yes, I read Armstrong's "History of God" in 1998. It is a very detailed text, eh? I also read Armstrong's Short History of Islam. She's decent (I hear she is an ex-RC nun), but I find others to be more scholarly.

I might be interested in looking at Esposito... thanks for the recs!