Salvation from the process (life) without investment in the process, why?

[benglobal]

In essence what I am saying is that why do you get to eat the cake unless you’ve baked it.

So, was reincarnation once part of Christian teaching? Also what do non Christians think about reincarnation so not to limit the discussion.

Not sure how much I can add other than the OP as time is very limited but I would value all comments.

 

[Tobias]

As a person who accepts the fact that God has a process to how He does things... and that we sometimes can know and understand how He has accomplished certain things...

I have no problem accepting the possibility that lifeforms on this planet developed over time, from simpler forms to the more complex. So what about our spirits? Did they suddenly appear from nothing, the moment our physical bodies were conceived? We do not know for certain. One verse in the Bible seems to indicate that Man only gets one shot at a human life, which I'm sure somebody will take the time to quote for you. But even to the most strictest of Bible-Believers, it still seems to leave open the possibility of reincarnation from "lower" forms of life!

IDK.

 

[benglobal]

[

As a person who accepts the fact that God has a process to how He does things... and that we sometimes can know and understand how He has accomplished certain things...

Hi Tobias, Thanks for the response. I knew they would be lean but without any reply I’m talking to myself, which I find to be quite rewarding but a little askew on a discussion forum.


Yes I agree, the process is called life, the creation. Can we know and understand God from an evaluation of life, the creation, I believe so, or certainly move closer to God whatever you define that as. So if the answer is in the process (life) you cannot move beyond the process until you know, (the answer) otherwise the process is obsolete as a process of answers, or knowledge gained through physical experience. This leaves no room for one strike and your out theology IMO and a re-investment in the process is all there can be. That’s not to say reincarnation necessarily, but a re-investment in the process, because I believe that there are greater investments that will need to be applied by our being beyond this form that we cannot move to unless we understand the investment needed in this one. This investment in the process is at the heart of all theology.
I believe the Christian faith taught that multiple lifetimes to understand were not needed, that by investing in the way that Jesus taught to live you could attain this understanding in one lifetime, so lets have no talk of re-incarnation. This has become clouded and re-taught that you only get one life and the only way to obtain salvation a is through embracing Jesus Christ as savior. You see the word salvation spoils everything because it moves the focus from investment in the process to investment in gaining salvation and that salvation can only achieved by acknowledging Jesus as savior. The savior is in the investment of life that he was promoting, the way he was showing, was living, that other great spiritual masters have taught and still teach today.

[

I have no problem accepting the possibility that lifeforms on this planet developed over time, from simpler forms to the more complex. So what about our spirits? Did they suddenly appear from nothing, the moment our physical bodies were conceived? We do not know for certain. One verse in the Bible seems to indicate that Man only gets one shot at a human life, which I'm sure somebody will take the time to quote for you. But even to the most strictest of Bible-Believers, it still seems to leave open the possibility of reincarnation from "lower" forms of life!

IDK.

Spirit is within every living organism, as they all have the ability to interconnect and relate. Spirit is not some abstract essence that cannot be defined, Spirit beyond this physical form is the same, it’s interconnection and relationship but within this form that gets harmonized by love, out ability to show we care through physical application and clear mind intention. That spirit stays constant through ever evolving life forms on earth. This spirit is the ability in interconnect and relate to each other. We as humans I believe have evolved to a higher state of awareness or consciousness (some) which allows recognition of this spirit. This recognition gets carried out by a clear and pure mind and through senses that are driven by a clear and pure body, then we are capable of total awareness of spirit in that we can transcend physical form and move to a higher state which is just pure interconnection and relationship, the spirit, whilst in life. We essentially do this with love, showing that we care on every level. How do you transcend physical form whilst in physical form?


There are only three things that separate us at birth Tobias

1. gender 2. colour 3. your locality of birth, this is obviously for the average person of fully functioning faculties.

Yes the additions after birth are many and varied but at birth very few.

Beyond those three physical properties at birth what have we. Well we are conscious, you are aware of your being and so am I of mine. So if we can move beyond the physical properties that we were born to, we are one, there is no separation. We are both conscious of being. To know this is to embrace the spirit, which is interconnection and relationship harmonizing through love, my ability to show I care. You no longer see the physical separations between us and just see our being. I can even look beyond your actions, even is they are cruel and twisted because I acknowledge those aspects of your being are the add on’s from the three physical properties that separate us at birth. I can see through an absence of love in your life, an absence of anothers ability to show you they care, the interconnection and relationship that should be present thus revealing the spirit is dysfunctional and destructive through and absence of love being shown. In essence what’s produced is an evil sprit, a warped interconnection and relationship that leads to dysfunction and destruction through and absence of love. This can even come about from you not showing yourself love, in that if you do not show your body and mind that you care, with what you ingest and the information draw into the mind you will create a warped interconnection and relationship between you and you, and you have created an evil spirit within you through your actions. You cannot then create a loving interconnection and relationship with another because you have not created it within you. So on a base level this investment with life starts with the self, but must swiftly move to embrace all selves otherwise the ego will dominate (the devil, this expanded sense of self) and then start to create dysfunction and destruction outside of the self, all the while you yourself is totting along oblivious to the lack of love that it is showing.

Also transcending physical form whist in physical form can be done with simple mediation, shutting down the senses, clearing the mind, (takes practice) focusing on the breath, and revealing your being.

Sorry to use the YOU analogy there tobias I’m pointing out what you perhaps already know.


Animals have spirit in that they do interconnect and have relationship but have a more basic instinctual aspect. Yes they show they care, by feeding nurturing and protecting their young. They harmonize their interconnection and relationship through love, showing that they care. So I don't believe spirit is unique to humans but its our innate sense of knowing what we are, which gets lost from those physical separations of birth and after, that can be realized through a greater conceptual understanding of the totality of our being by revealing that being through interconnection and relationship through love, which transcends basic instinct and moves to intuition, an innate sense of knowing what you are. Knowledge is the assassin of ignorance but this can only manifest itself through a full commitment to love. Showing that you care on every level in life. So unless life shows us that we are one, or our physical experience hasn't presented that to us in life how can that oneness manifest itself beyond that in some afterlife, as this separation gets formed in our minds in life and this will inhibit any moving to another state of being after life. I don't know the process either fully and like you I'm cool with that.


Have a look at the link and apply it to the above.
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...ajup43zN2hJDsTiFQ&sig2=3-P4RpaD2-VbRHj8mfOMDQ


So like I said from the OP how do we get to eat the cake unless we bake it first.

 

[JesiJones]

Some early Christian groups did believe in reincarnation as early Christianity had a huge gnostic influence. That's not to say all groups at the time agreed what was "proper". There are also man types of Christians out there. Rosicrucians for example, completely challenge the Christian stereotype.

As to whether one is allowed in the early gates without works...... I think the bigger question is thus: why do people think that if they are going to heaven/afterlife that gives them an excuse to ignore the concerns of this life? We treat our Kingdom like crap. :/

 

[ViaCrucis]

In essence what I am saying is that why do you get to eat the cake unless you’ve baked it.

So, was reincarnation once part of Christian teaching? Also what do non Christians think about reincarnation so not to limit the discussion.

Not sure how much I can add other than the OP as time is very limited but I would value all comments.

Some Gnostic sects probably believed in a kind of reincarnation, but it was never part of the catholic, proto-orthodox tradition.

Even the oft-repeated appeal to Origen of Alexandria as teaching metempsychosis is untenable as Origen specifically rejects the transmigration of souls as foreign to standard Christian teaching.

Given the huge emphasis the Christian tradition has placed on the resurrection of the body the notion of metempsychosis becomes rather difficult to reconcile. Metempsychosis would mean that the body is fundamentally just a shell containing the soul which goes against everything the catholic Christian tradition has maintained eschatologically. Our earliest confessions include explicit statements about our belief and conviction that the body will be raised at the end of history.

The idea that the soul goes into some place called "Heaven" and floats around forever "up there" in a city in the sky is a relatively modern idea; it is likely part of a general over-reaction to philosophic materialism that was becoming rather dominant in the Enlightenment period.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[benglobal]

Some early Christian groups did believe in reincarnation as early Christianity had a huge gnostic influence. That's not to say all groups at the time agreed what was "proper". There are also man types of Christians out there. Rosicrucians for example, completely challenge the Christian stereotype.

As to whether one is allowed in the early gates without works...... I think the bigger question is thus: why do people think that if they are going to heaven/afterlife that gives them an excuse to ignore the concerns of this life? We treat our Kingdom like crap. :/

Indeed that is a big question. Perhaps it's the kingdom rather than our kingdom. That changed my perspective greatly.

 

[benglobal]

Some Gnostic sects probably believed in a kind of reincarnation, but it was never part of the catholic, proto-orthodox tradition.

Even the oft-repeated appeal to Origen of Alexandria as teaching metempsychosis is untenable as Origen specifically rejects the transmigration of souls as foreign to standard Christian teaching.

Given the huge emphasis the Christian tradition has placed on the resurrection of the body the notion of metempsychosis becomes rather difficult to reconcile. Metempsychosis would mean that the body is fundamentally just a shell containing the soul which goes against everything the catholic Christian tradition has maintained eschatologically. Our earliest confessions include explicit statements about our belief and conviction that the body will be raised at the end of history.

The idea that the soul goes into some place called "Heaven" and floats around forever "up there" in a city in the sky is a relatively modern idea; it is likely part of a general over-reaction to philosophic materialism that was becoming rather dominant in the Enlightenment period.

-CryptoLutheran

From a historical perspective my knowledge is small regarding Christianity, so my question was in good faith. So I use other means to address within Christianity what I have found in other faiths. That said I do need to re-educate myself from a rebellious rejection of Christianity in my youth. I really have given up on the notion of heaven and hell as painted in my mid-seventies schooling and really I've looked to life for the answers and all that it encompasses.

Edit. That was the start of my schooling the Mid seventies, you know very young and impressionable a 5 year old with an open heart and mind ready to embrace life. Then ............