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Salvation Cannot be Lost

Phil W

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You have proved nothing but your love for sin.
As you wish to paint the writers of the epistles as sinners, it must truly be easy to forsake the righteousness Jesus died to deliver us to.
If your examples are all servants of sin, it makes it easy for you be a sinner too.

God made a way to cast off the flesh and walk in the Spirit.
I thank Him for it.
 
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FreeGrace2

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You have proved nothing but your love for sin.
This is beyond preposterous. And you cannot prove the ridiculous claim you are making.

As you wish to paint the writers of the epistles as sinners, it must truly be easy to forsake the righteousness Jesus died to deliver us to.
Are you kidding?? I quoted the apostle Paul in 1 Tim 1:13-15.

13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

v.13 clearly shows his unsaved state.
v.14 shows his conversion.
v.15 shows his current state; Christ came to save SINNERS, "of whom I AM THE WORST."

John, the beloved disciple wrote:

1 John 1:8 - If we (you believers and me) claim to be without sin, we (you believers and me) deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us (you believers and me).

It's clear that John was including himself in this verse.

So, he's talking about who "claim to be without sin". Just as you keep doing.

And he is clear; such people are self deceived and the TRUTH is NOT in them.

That includes you.

If your examples are all servants of sin, it makes it easy for you be a sinner too.
Just read what they wrote.

God made a way to cast off the flesh and walk in the Spirit.
I thank Him for it.
Yes, He did. And yes, I thank Him for it.

But that doesn't mean any believer is "without sin", as John clearly stated.

Again, such people are self deceived and the truth is NOT in them.

You can't get around the Bible.
 
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Phil W

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Some folks use the word of God to free themselves from sin and others use God's word to justify their sin.
God has freed me from sinning by allowing me a new nature in His Son.
He has caused the death and burial of all I formerly possessed...and I don't miss it a wit.
And I thank God for it in the name of Jesus Christ.
That freedom is there for all men and women.
Acquiring it starts with a real, permanent, repentance from sin.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Some folks use the word of God to free themselves from sin and others use God's word to justify their sin.
Why don't you just believe what both Paul and John said about their own status, and what John said about believers who "claim to be without sin", as you keep doing?

God has freed me from sinning by allowing me a new nature in His Son.
Does this mean you don't believe what the beloved disciple said in 1 John 1:8?

He has caused the death and burial of all I formerly possessed...and I don't miss it a wit.
Do you think that the beloved disciple didn't get the memo, then?

And I thank God for it in the name of Jesus Christ.
Why do you thank God for a viewpoint that is contradicted by Scripture?

That freedom is there for all men and women.
Yes, there is freedom. But it requires the believer to be in fellowship, to confess their sins when they sin, and to actively seek the filling of the Holy Spirit.

All things you have shown a serious lack of understanding about.

Acquiring it starts with a real, permanent, repentance from sin.
There is no such thing on this planet.

And John says those who "claim to be without sin have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them". 1 John 1:8

His use of "we" and "us" show that he was including himself as possibilities, if he should be so arrogant as to claim that he was without sin.\

You just can't get around what he said. You have been exposed for what you are, by what you keep claiming.
 
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Phil W

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Why don't you just believe what both Paul and John said about their own status, and what John said about believers who "claim to be without sin", as you keep doing?
John was talking about those who walk in darkness, in 1 John 1:8.
Those who walk in light have had all their sins washed away by the blood of Christ.
Those walking in the light can say they have no sin...to the glory of God.

Does this mean you don't believe what the beloved disciple said in 1 John 1:8?
I do believe it, just like I believe verse 6.
It says that those who say they have fellowship with God, but walk in darkness, are liars and do not the truth.

Do you think that the beloved disciple didn't get the memo, then?
He did get the memo, and as far as I know continued to walk in the light, wherein is no sin. (v.6)

Why do you thank God for a viewpoint that is contradicted by Scripture?
Because our baptism into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection; thereby crucifying the flesh with the affections and lusts from Rom 6:3-6 isn't contradicted by scripture.
That is where my old self, and nature, were killed and I was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
I'm surprised you have not been able to see that if you are still cradling an old nature it is the same old life.
But then again, you must want that new life.
To be satisfied with the old status-quo is actually idolatry...and it isn't rebirth.

Yes, there is freedom. But it requires the believer to be in fellowship, to confess their sins when they sin, and to actively seek the filling of the Holy Spirit.
All things you have shown a serious lack of understanding about.
To have fellowship with God, and His Son, one must be walking in the light.
As the light is God, (1 John 1:5), sinners won't be found there.
Folks in the darkness, sin, were never in God: or they would still be walking in the light-God.

There is no such thing on this planet.
Like there is no rebirth?
Like there is no new creature?
Like "old things are passed away: behold, all things are made new"? (2 Cor 5:17)

And John says those who "claim to be without sin have deceived themselves and the truth is not in them". 1 John 1:8
Those false claimants are walking in darkness, sin.
Sinners can't be truthful saying they have no sin.
They are walking in the darkness, and alienated from God.
Thankfully, God has made it possible to walk in the light, wherein we can say we are without sin; just like Rom 6:7 says..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."
And He has made it possible to remain in the light till we are called home.

His use of "we" and "us" show that he was including himself as possibilities, if he should be so arrogant as to claim that he was without sin.
I wonder if they ever said that about Jesus?
John was talking about "them". Two different kinds of men.
One walked in the light/God, and the other walked in darkness/sin.

You just can't get around what he said. You have been exposed for what you are, by what you keep claiming.
All you have done is aligned yourself with the defenders of darkness.
I was like that earlier in my life, but now I rejoice in the light/God.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
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FreeGrace2

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[QUOTE="Phil W, post: 74605626, member: 418801"All you have done is aligned yourself with the defenders of darkness.[/QUOTE]
I have aligned myself with the Bible, and have focused on what the beloved disciple wrote. It's not nice to call the beloved disciple a "defender of darkness". Shame.

I was like that earlier in my life, but now I rejoice in the light/God.
Well, let's just review what the beloved disciple wrote, shall we?

1 John 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

OK, first we (you and me) notice that the red words are in the first person, which means that John was including even himself IF, IF, IF he claimed to be without sin.

The blue words state the issue of this verse. The claim that you are without sin.

The green words reveals the status of those who "claim to be without sin".

So, John, the beloved disciple, condemns your claim to be "without sin", and calls you out as a self deceived person who has NO TRUTH in you.

You just can't get around this verse. It totally reveals who you really are.

If your "claim" were true and biblical, John would NEVER have used the first person in that verse. He would have only used "you" in addressing his audience.
 
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Phil W

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[QUOTE="Phil W, post: 74605626, member: 418801"All you have done is aligned yourself with the defenders of darkness.
If "we" are walking in darkness, it applies to us.
But if "we" are walking in the light, it doesn't because all our sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ.
John is writing about two very different kinds of men and two very different kinds of walk.
Some verses are of those who walk in darkness, (6, 8, 10), and others concern those walking in the light, (5, 7, 9).

Which are you walking in?
Sin is darkness, (Pro 4:19)
God is light. (1 John 1:5)
 
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FreeGrace2

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If "we" are walking in darkness, it applies to us.
No, it applies to ANYONE who claims to be without sin, just as YOU have done.

But if "we" are walking in the light, it doesn't because all our sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ.
You're just twisting Scripture to fit your agenda.

John is writing about two very different kinds of men and two very different kinds of walk.
That's true, but not the way you have to twist it. John is describing believers who claim they are without sin, as v.8 very clearly states, and are self deceived and have no truth in them. And those who don't make that claim, who are NOT self deceived and DO have truth in them.

You just want it to be about saved and unsaved people to fit your agenda.

Some verses are of those who walk in darkness, (6, 8, 10), and others concern those walking in the light, (5, 7, 9).

Which are you walking in?
Sin is darkness, (Pro 4:19)
God is light. (1 John 1:5)
Interesting that you won't deal face to face with v.8. Because it describes YOU.
 
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Phil W

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No, it applies to ANYONE who claims to be without sin, just as YOU have done.
Were I a sinner, walking in darkness, and without fellowship with God, it would apply to me.
But I walk in the light/God, wherein is no sin.
My past sins have been cleansed by the blood of Christ.

You're just twisting Scripture to fit your agenda.
I can't walk in God and sin at the same time.
Either I am in God/light, or I am in darkness/sin.
God has enabled us to stay in the light permanently by our rebirth of His seed.
Thanks be to God !

Have you noticed that the ending of verse 6 correlates with that of verse 8?
One says those walking in darkness, while saying they have fellowship with God, are liars and "do not the truth".
The other says "the truth is not in us".
As they are intrinsically connected in outcome, (no truth), the cause must be the same.
The cause?
Walking in darkness/sin.
Sinners cannot say they have fellowship with God, nor can they say they have no sin.
If only they would confess their past sins and start walking in the light, then they too could remain sin free.

You just want it to be about saved and unsaved people to fit your agenda.
Is pointing out that men can worship God without fault such a bad thing?

Interesting that you won't deal face to face with v.8. Because it describes YOU.
I walk in the light, wherein the blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, has washed away all my past sins.
I intend to stay there.

You are welcome to enter into that light too, after a real repentance from all sin...permanently. (v. 9)
 
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FreeGrace2

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The apostle John was writing to YOU when he penned:

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

You claim to be without sin.

The Bible says you have deceived yourself and the truth is not in you.
 
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Phil W

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The apostle John was writing to YOU when he penned:
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
You claim to be without sin.
The Bible says you have deceived yourself and the truth is not in you.
He was writing to a church or group of churches about those who walk in darkness, sin.
Sinners cannot say they have no sin.
Those who walk in light, God, can say they have no sin...as there is no sin in God.
If they are not without sin, they can't be in the light, God.
 
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FreeGrace2

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He was writing to a church or group of churches about those who walk in darkness, sin.
He was writing to believers, by the use of the first person 3 times in v.8.

Sinners cannot say they have no sin.
Please explain WHY John included even himself in v.8 by the first person.

"If WE claim to be without sin" is what he wrote. The "we" means "you or me" in addressing believers. Proving that believers HAVE sin.

Believers CANNOT claim to be without sin.

Those who DO, such as yourself, have deceived themselves, and the truth is not in them.

Those who walk in light, God, can say they have no sin...as there is no sin in God.
If they are not without sin, they can't be in the light, God.
You are just not reading the verse correctly.

John's point is that ANYONE, even himself, who claims to be without sin is self deceived and has no truth in them.

You're not reading it correctly because you don't want to. The verse speaks directly to you. And calls you out on your claim that you are without sin.

In other words, NO ONE can claim to be without sin.

And those who DO, like yourself, are self deceived and have no truth in them.

Like yourself.

That is the clear meaning of v.8
 
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Phil W

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He was writing to believers, by the use of the first person 3 times in v.8.
Yes, he was.
But he was writing about unbelievers and their walks in sin/darkness in verses 6, 8, and 10.

Please explain WHY John included even himself in v.8 by the first person.
"IF WE..." indicates an option granted to all, and the recompense for that behavior will be a second death.
Verse 7 is also an option granted to all, but walking in the light/God has a different outcome...eternal life.

"If WE claim to be without sin" is what he wrote. The "we" means "you or me" in addressing believers. Proving that believers HAVE sin.
How can you see the word "we" but be blind to the word "if"?

Believers CANNOT claim to be without sin.
Only if they are still walking in darkness, but that means they are not believers.

Those who DO, such as yourself, have deceived themselves, and the truth is not in them.
"But if we....walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
I walk in the light, God, and the blood of Jesus Christ has cleansed me of all past sins.
As long as my faith doesn't diminish, I will continue to walk in the light.

As long as you hold that erroneous doctrine, you deprive yourself of the walk in the light/God.
And of the washing away of all unrighteousness by the blood of Christ.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Yes, he was.
But he was writing about unbelievers and their walks in sin/darkness in verses 6, 8, and 10.
How can you say such a thing?? He included himself in the condition.

"IF WE..." indicates an option granted to all, and the recompense for that behavior will be a second death.
No. He said nothing about a second death. What he did say was those who claim to be without sin, as you do, are self deceived and have no truth in them.

Verse 7 is also an option granted to all, but walking in the light/God has a different outcome...eternal life.
Ne never said that either. The subject of ch 1 is fellowship, not how to have eternal life.

How can you see the word "we" but be blind to the word "if"?
That's the point. I haven't. John was including himself in that condition of claiming to be without sin.

So, what he was saying is that those who claim to be without sin are self deceived and have no truth in them.

What is the result of meeting the condition of walking in the light??? "we have FELLOWSHIP and Christ's blood cleanses us from all sin. There is nothing in this verse about how to have eternal life.

And v.7 uses the same idea as v.9. "cleanses us from all sin" in v.7 is equivalent to "cleanses us from all unrighteousness" in v.9.

As long as you hold that erroneous doctrine, you deprive yourself of the walk in the light/God.
The truth is that you are the self deceived one who has no truth in you, because you claim to be without sin.

You are misreading v.8 so badly, I can hardly believe it.

This is what John was saying:

those who claim to be without sin have deceived themselves and have no truth in them.
 
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corinth77777

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If we read 1 Peter chapter 3...starting at verse 21....
And know that as the Ark was their salvation...which is considered a noun...person, place or thing....in that sense the ark was never out of view...I'm sure especially as it got bigger... But if no one gor in the ark....even it was their salvation....it would save no one....

In the same likeness....the resurrection of Jesus is what cleanses [delivers] although it is a noun, for it represents what cleanses you...But if you do not walk in it's power will it free you? No....so of course you do not lose the source....however you may not be delivered by the source if you are not obedient to it's call.

ST JOHN 3:16....IS LIKE 1 PETER 3:21...
TO PERISH IS TO GET FUTHER AWAY FROM LIFE....THE LIFE THAT IS IN Christ.
A d although physical and complete spiritual death may be a byproduct of the path of continual sin. They are not exactly the same.
Just as life after death is a byproduct of the quality of life called eternal life, that we can have when we continue to put our trust In Jesus.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Right.

I think you have missed the point. Let's go with "in the same likeness".

To have salvation is to be IN the Ark. It seems you are suggesting that a believer can get out of the Ark, and thus, lose salvation. However, there are no verses that say such a thing.

In fact, Jesus said the opposite. Those given eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28. Then He noted in v.28 and v.29 that His sheep (believers) are in His and His Father's hand and "no one can snatch them out of their hands".

The words "no one" includes "no person". And since the believer is a person, Jesus was even including the sheep him/herself as to cannot remove the believer from God's hand.

Just as life after death is a byproduct of the quality of life called eternal life
I must strongly disagree. Eternal life is not based on the quality of life on earth. That amounts to a works type of salvation.

The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works. Eph 2:8,9

I will agree that the "quality of life on earth" will effect "life after death". The Bible calls it eternal reward.
 
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