Someone told me that in some territories (eg France) Salvationists are allowed to drink alcohol. Can any one shed any light on this for me?
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Salvation Army and alcohol
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Andy Broadley
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Andy Broadley
quam pulchra es amica mea quam pulchra
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And while were at it...
What do people think of the Army's stance on alcohol. Is it time that it was reviewed or at least given a thorough debate at all levels?
Nobody could deny that 140 years ago it was very much needed, but has the world changed enough for it to be interpreted a little more loosely?
Answers on the back of twenty pound notes please, to....
Seriously though, for my part, I think it needs to be reviewed and relaxed.
What do people think of the Army's stance on alcohol. Is it time that it was reviewed or at least given a thorough debate at all levels?
Nobody could deny that 140 years ago it was very much needed, but has the world changed enough for it to be interpreted a little more loosely?
Answers on the back of twenty pound notes please, to....
Seriously though, for my part, I think it needs to be reviewed and relaxed.
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something from the fridge
eltit sdrawkcab motsuc
i don't have any issues with choosing not to drink.
it is so easy to go one step to far,
it is so easy to go one step to far,
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Andy Broadley
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Which is fine, but is it still needed for the Army to enforce this, or could it be left to choice
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I
InTheFlame
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Still looking for info
Personally, I'd be highly distraught if the SA relaxed its drinking policy. Seriously, I'd be bawling my eyes out. I practically am at the mere thought. I suspect I'm not the only person who's had issues with alcohol who would be. I'd be upset because the SA is a safe place for me, where I don't have to be on my guard. That would HAVE to change if reform allowed soldiers and officers to drink alcohol.
I think that, although nowhere near most SA soldiers are in frequent contact with alcoholics, drug addicts etc... maybe we all should be, and maybe if allowing alcohol wouldn't cause a problem in our corps, it's the corps that's at fault. Two corps I've attended had a number of rehab clients (or ex-rehab clients) as part of their congregation. I think it would be harmful to those members to have soldiers and officers drinking alcohol. We're supposed to look after our weaker siblings, not lead them back into the sin which had a hold over their lives.
Do you think that's selfish - to ask an entire congregation to abstain from alcohol so that one person isn't tempted? I can't help but hope that the reform never happens.
Personally, I'd be highly distraught if the SA relaxed its drinking policy. Seriously, I'd be bawling my eyes out. I practically am at the mere thought. I suspect I'm not the only person who's had issues with alcohol who would be. I'd be upset because the SA is a safe place for me, where I don't have to be on my guard. That would HAVE to change if reform allowed soldiers and officers to drink alcohol.
I think that, although nowhere near most SA soldiers are in frequent contact with alcoholics, drug addicts etc... maybe we all should be, and maybe if allowing alcohol wouldn't cause a problem in our corps, it's the corps that's at fault. Two corps I've attended had a number of rehab clients (or ex-rehab clients) as part of their congregation. I think it would be harmful to those members to have soldiers and officers drinking alcohol. We're supposed to look after our weaker siblings, not lead them back into the sin which had a hold over their lives.
Do you think that's selfish - to ask an entire congregation to abstain from alcohol so that one person isn't tempted? I can't help but hope that the reform never happens.
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E
elm0
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InTheFlame said:
I don't think so.
To be honest, When I first attended the SA, I was impressed by the fact that soldiers are not allowed alcohol. I thought it was a good idea, especially when they are all working with alcoholics etc. It was a little while later that I realised they don't all do that sort of work :o What was I supposed to think though, when the corps I was attending was so full of recovering addicts, nobody told me they aren't all like that.
I agree with ITF, if drinking alcohol is allowed for soldiers, then it may cause others to stumble, those who currently rely on those soldiers for guidance and support.
I've had a discussion with someone before about soldiership, and one of their comments was along the lines of "If soldiers could drink, I'd sign up tomorrow." I personally think that's a wrong attitude. It should be about whether God wants you to be a soldier, not about whether you can have a drink or not. And after hearing a comment like that, I feel that the way it is at the moment is not only good for those who have problems with alcohol, but also helps keep some people from becoming soldiers who may not be fully committed.
Hope that made sense.
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Andy Broadley
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I agree with Abiel though that there is something wrong when Jesus would not be allowed to wear uniform.
Besides, a great many soldiers have already made their own unofficial decisions on this matter, and follow the regulation which say's be descreet and don't get caught
Besides, a great many soldiers have already made their own unofficial decisions on this matter, and follow the regulation which say's be descreet and don't get caught
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I would find it hard to work with an alcoholic and say yes I know its hard to give up and then go to the pub for a drink. My wife has said that the salvation army would have more soldiers if soldiers were allowed to smoke.
A couple of years ago the salvation Army here in Australia refused a very large donation from a company that makes its profits purely from gambling. When asked about this they said it would be sending the wrong message to the gambling addicts they are trying to help. I think it would be the same with alcohol. I also agree with the idea of making sure a weaker brother does not stumble. I think it always better to make sure we aren't putting stumbling blocks in peoples way.
A couple of years ago the salvation Army here in Australia refused a very large donation from a company that makes its profits purely from gambling. When asked about this they said it would be sending the wrong message to the gambling addicts they are trying to help. I think it would be the same with alcohol. I also agree with the idea of making sure a weaker brother does not stumble. I think it always better to make sure we aren't putting stumbling blocks in peoples way.
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Athanasian Creed
Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Solus Christus !!!
Then we get into the whole argument of - did Jesus drink fermented wine or just the fruit of the vine (grape juice) I personally think that it was the latter but....
And as a former Salvationist i agree with the stance on no alcohol. Is there a reason to drink alcohol at all - don't think so (of course i might be biased due to my dad dying of alcoholism and seeing in other family members the ruinous effects of alcohol abuse) Even if a Salvationist wasn't directly involved with alcoholics in ministry it seems to me to be a much clearer testimony that an organization such as the SA refrains from something that is a reason why they exist in the first place - to minister to abusers of alcohol (i hope that came out right !?
)
Ray
And as a former Salvationist i agree with the stance on no alcohol. Is there a reason to drink alcohol at all - don't think so (of course i might be biased due to my dad dying of alcoholism and seeing in other family members the ruinous effects of alcohol abuse) Even if a Salvationist wasn't directly involved with alcoholics in ministry it seems to me to be a much clearer testimony that an organization such as the SA refrains from something that is a reason why they exist in the first place - to minister to abusers of alcohol (i hope that came out right !?
)Ray
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I
InTheFlame
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I wonder if Jesus would drink if he was ministering to alcoholics? What do people think?
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Andy Broadley
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lonnienord
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knowing very little about Salvation Army i would say that there is probably very good reason to have a no Alcohol postion. By the way we serve non-Aloholic drinks in the pub. (course we discreetly serve good irish wiskey)
all for JESUS (who if i read the Bible correctly definately had fermented grape juice. With no refridgeration it would have been hard to have fresh non fermented wine year around.
lonnie ok ok i'm headed back to obob
all for JESUS (who if i read the Bible correctly definately had fermented grape juice. With no refridgeration it would have been hard to have fresh non fermented wine year around.
lonnie ok ok i'm headed back to obob
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lonnienord
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by the way the pub's address is: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16182693#post16182693
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cenimo
Jesus Had A 12 Man A-Team
(I'm not SA but admire you guys tremendously)
Doesn't Scripture say something about not doing something in front of "a brother" (another Christian) if you know it's something that you can "take it or leave it" but they can't control themselves around?
Personally, I'd say the answer to this thread would be somewhere between just because a person is SA doesn't meant they can't have an occassional nip, but at the same time their entire "M.O." should be never offer a drink to an alcoholic.
Abiel, I can't find a post of yours where you once said the mission of the SA is to deal with the fringes of society and the mission of other churches is propbably different, I think that comes in here too.
Doesn't Scripture say something about not doing something in front of "a brother" (another Christian) if you know it's something that you can "take it or leave it" but they can't control themselves around?
Personally, I'd say the answer to this thread would be somewhere between just because a person is SA doesn't meant they can't have an occassional nip, but at the same time their entire "M.O." should be never offer a drink to an alcoholic.
Abiel, I can't find a post of yours where you once said the mission of the SA is to deal with the fringes of society and the mission of other churches is propbably different, I think that comes in here too.
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cenimo
Jesus Had A 12 Man A-Team
Found the passage, here:
1 Corinthians 8:9-13
9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.
1 Corinthians 8:9-13
9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.
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coalfarm
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On the fronts i have fought on here in Canada my Christian witness would be totally discredited if i were to drink alcohol. I wage war in a neighbourhood where over 98% of the population is addicted to alcohol or other drugs. To say to them, "you cannot drink, but i can because i'm a stronger person" would be not only demoralising for the other person but awkward for me.
Even spending time in a rural corps, about a third of the corps is comprised of people who are recovering from some type of addiction.
The enslaving nature of alcohol, tobacco, MJ and even caffeine has become incredibly apparant to me during my time here. And i don't want to be controlled by anything other than Holy Spirit.
That is why i don't drink.
The Salvation Army's prohibition of drinking was established due to the stumbling block factor that Cenimo identified. This factor has neither gone away nor, in my opinion, diminished. Consequently, in my opinion the need for the no-drinking clause of the Articles of War has neither gone away, nor diminished.
Even spending time in a rural corps, about a third of the corps is comprised of people who are recovering from some type of addiction.
The enslaving nature of alcohol, tobacco, MJ and even caffeine has become incredibly apparant to me during my time here. And i don't want to be controlled by anything other than Holy Spirit.
That is why i don't drink.
The Salvation Army's prohibition of drinking was established due to the stumbling block factor that Cenimo identified. This factor has neither gone away nor, in my opinion, diminished. Consequently, in my opinion the need for the no-drinking clause of the Articles of War has neither gone away, nor diminished.
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