Salvation and the Trinity

So in essense, even if it is not clearly stated in Scripture

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Christ came to establish and make possible the Church which is the "pillar and ground of truth". The Scriptures are books that the Church reads in it's liturgy. They belong to the Church and derive their authority from the divine inspiration given to the Church.

the RCC teaches

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Nope. What the Orthodox Church (the one holy , catholic , and apostolic church) teaches.

Christos Anesti said:

Very good point. The Muslims know our Bible teaches that Jesus is God the Son thats why they claim it has been tampered with.

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You mean you can't think of even one example where Scriptures were changed to support the Trinity?

Christos Anesti said:

Christ came to establish and make possible the Church which is the "pillar and ground of truth". The Scriptures are books that the Church reads in it's liturgy. They belong to the Church and derive their authority from the divine inspiration given to the Church.

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No they derive their authority from the Apostles. We believe them to be writings of the apostles. That is why they are considered to be authoritative.

Nope. What the Orthodox Church (the one holy , catholic , and apostolic church) teaches.

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Oops my mistake. I forgot for a moment that I wasn't talking to a Catholic.

Searching_for_Christ said:

Not to stoke a fire but I have heard that the traditional baptismal formula of "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" was actually an addition into the Scriptures, that it even doesn't show up in earlier manuscripts and stuff...but i haven't looked much into it.

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Well, I have heard about that too. I honestly don't know much about that though. I would have to look into it as well. The baptismal formula is too ambiguous to teach a doctrine that God is 3 persons. I see it more as an affirmation of divine authority.

There are other examples which are more widely acknowledged as changes made to the Scriptures. A prime example would be 1 John 5:7. Otherwise known as the Comma Johanneum.

well folks, honestly , this may surprise some but the authority ultimately comes from us. whether our beliefs are preconditioned ( e.g. one thinks like a muslim because he was born a muslim) or our beliefs were a result of self reflection and deep searching, the authority comes from us.

when we say the authority comes from the bible or the magisterium, it is us in the end who give this authority to them so they will have authority over us.

we chose which book is inspired and which book is infalible, we choose whether god is a triune or not, we choose our church, our pastor etc

,

No they derive their authority from the Apostles

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How are the Apostles seperate from the Church ?

Oops my mistake. I forgot for a moment that I wasn't talking to a Catholic.

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Heaven forbid!

Christos Anesti said:

How are the Apostles seperate from the Church ?



Heaven forbid!

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They are separate from the Orthodox Church in that the Apostles did not believe that Christ was God nor did the Apostles believe in a Trinity. That's a big separation there isn't it?

Unless of course you could prove otherwise...(That the Apostles believed that Jesus is God and that they believed in a Trinity)

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shallworship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:23-24)


I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. (John 8:24 & 27)


For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)



God bless.
MannaMinistry.com

ToxicReboMan said:

Well, I have heard about that too. I honestly don't know much about that though. I would have to look into it as well. The baptismal formula is too ambiguous to teach a doctrine that God is 3 persons. I see it more as an affirmation of divine authority.

There are other examples which are more widely acknowledged as changes made to the Scriptures. A prime example would be 1 John 5:7. Otherwise known as the Comma Johanneum.

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I have heard that rumor but here it is quoted as scripture ca. 1000 years + before it was supposedly inserted by Erasmus.

Cyprian 250 AD Treatise I On The Unity of the church.

The Lord says, "I and the Father are one; " and again it is written of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, "And these three are one.” And does any one believe that this unity which thus comes from the divine strength and coheres in celestial sacraments, can be divided in the Church, and can be separated by the parting asunder of opposing wills? He who does not hold this unity does not hold God's law, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.

ANF05. Fathers of the Third Century: Hippolytus, Cyprian, Caius, Novatian, Appendix | Christian Classics Ethereal Library​

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Christos Anesti said:

How are the Apostles seperate from the Church ?

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Because they were living the N.T.. The Apostles had the O.T. and the Judaic traditions of church. They were Jews that followed after Christ and the traditions that they taught were Jewish not Eastern Orthodox. They were seperated from what you think of as "the church".

Searching_for_Christ said:

The question is "Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian" meaning must you believe in a Triune Godhead to be saved?

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The better question would be, can you believe in the trinity and still be a believer in the God of the Bible?

Anybody who preaches that one has to beleive the Trinity to be saved is preaching another gospel different than the gospel of the bible.

Galatians 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus (like God the son, or god the Word), whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel (like believe the trinity and ye shall be saved) , which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

the real gospel says to believe that Jesus is the son of God, the fake gospel says to believe that Jesus is God.


1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Now show me the verse that say s to believe Jesus is god overcomes the word. It is afake gospel.

The question of the thread is a challenging one, but I think the answer has to be "no."

I'd also point out that there are all manner of ways of DISbelieving in the Trinity, and it is possible that some of them would place a person outside Christianity--but as the question was worded, I'd say "no."

It's the major proof of Trinity that convinces most people to believe it. Believe it or die. Otherwise there's no way the vast majority of trinitarians could believe a doctrine based on spurious scirptures, interpolations of scriptures, fake made up grammar rules, and illogic that surpasses ones wildest imaginations, bad translations, outand out totally wrong translations, etc etc. etc. Not to mention the tons of vocabulary invented to prove the doctrine.
Sotelling people they have to believe the tirnity to be saved is what makes most people believe it, they are afraid of queestioning it.. which explains why most trintiarians know little about it. it's a doctrine so confusing, contradictory and nonsensical, few invest any time in learning it, think for fear that they will discover it makes no sense and isn't true, and t hereby loose their salvation. Safer just to accept it and ignore it, which is what most do, IMO..

2ducklow said:

It's the major proof of Trinity that convinces most people to believe it. Believe it or die. Otherwise there's no way the vast majority of trinitarians could believe a doctrine based on spurious scirptures, interpolations of scriptures, fake made up grammar rules, and illogic that surpasses ones wildest imaginations, bad translations, outand out totally wrong translations, etc etc. etc. Not to mention the tons of vocabulary invented to prove the doctrine.

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You're entitled to that opinion, but I am of the opinion that it is virtually impossible to accept the Bible--even with the problems of translations and grammar, etc. -- and NOT believe that Jesus was God in the flesh. The concept is just too pervasive in scripture to think that it hangs on one verse or one word here or there that could be translated in a different way.

But this thread is not about who believes in the Trinity, is it? Or whether it is wise to believe in the Trinity. And the OP wasn't an invitation to rehash every other thread that attacked the Trinitarian belief. The question of the OP was whether or not one could fairly be considered a Christian if he did not believe in the Trinitarian view of God.

Albion said:

You're entitled to that opinion, but I am of the opinion that it is virtually impossible to accept the Bible--even with the problems of translations and grammar, etc. -- and NOT believe that Jesus was God in the flesh.

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then you are saying faith in the trinity is necessary for salvation, you're just beating around the bush about it.
I believe every word of the bible is the word of god and I do not believe in the trinity.

albion said:

The concept is just too pervasive in scripture to think that it hangs on one verse or one word here or there that could be translated in a different way.

But this thread is not about who believes in the Trinity, is it?

Or whether it is wise to believe in the Trinity. And the OP wasn't an invitation to rehash every other thread that attacked the Trinitarian belief.

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So in other words it's ok for you to say trinity is everywhere in the scripture but it isn't ok for me to say it''s only in made up scriptures. And it's not a scripture here or one or two there, it's every single one of them. no exceptions. My point was that since trinity is based on made up scriptures and amde up grammar rules, and unbelieveably illogical reasoning, it therefore cannot possibly be true and therefore cannot possibly be a prerequisite for salvation.

albion said:

The question of the OP was whether or not one could fairly be considered a Christian if he did not believe in the Trinitarian view of God.

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well we aren't going to find any scripture that says "he that believes in the trinity has overcome the world". so we would have to say you have two choices . Either option 1 or 2.


option 1. believe the trinitarian interpretation of scriptures to be saved.
or

option 2. believe in what the bible says about salvation, i.e. faith in Christ, believing Jesus is the son of god, being born again, etc.

I choose # 2. most trintiarians choose both 1. and 2.


So then the question becomes "Is it justifiable to say ones salvation depends on faith in someones interrpetation of scripture?"

Trinitairans interpret the phoney scirpture matthew 28.19 to mean Trinity (altough not all trinitarians do) . So that would mean one has to have faith in a trinitairan interpretation of matthew 28.19 to be saved. The word of God doesn't say 'mathew 28.19 means trinty and believe it or you go to hell". That is the trinitarian interrpretation of that made up scritpure.
and the same would be said of every other scritpure interpreted to mean trinity. It would mean faith in the word of god isn't good enough. One also has to have faith in someone elses interpretation of scripture.

But does faith come by hearing the word of God or does it come by hearing the trinitarian interpretation of the word? the answer is obvious to me. As obvious as scripture.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I believe we are justified by faith in God's word even if we have a wrong interpretation of that word. show me in the word where it says 'believe the trinity and thou shalt b e saved" and I'll be a believer, until then ferget it.

2ducklow said:

then you are saying faith in the trinity is necessary for salvation

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Seems to me that I said the exact opposite of that.

So in other words it's ok for you to say trinity is everywhere in the scripture

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I didn't say that "trinity is everywhere in the scripture." I said that there are scriptural evidences of the Trinity in many verses.

but it isn't ok for me to say it''s only in made up scriptures.

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Sure, you can say that. In fact, I said explicitly that "you are entitled to that opinion."

My point was that since trinity is based on made up scriptures and amde up grammar rules, and unbelieveably illogical reasoning, it therefore cannot possibly be true and therefore cannot possibly be a prerequisite for salvation.

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And I said that you are entitled to hold that opinion. I don't agree that it's based upon a correct reading of scripture, however.

I believe we are justified by faith in God's word even if we have a wrong interpretation of that word.

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I believe we are justified by faith in Christ (even if we have a wrong interpretation of some of God's word). Obviously, I'd say, if a person doesn't know who Christ is, that would raise doubts about his having faith in Christ.

If you compare the trinity to water it makes much more sense. Three unique persons that are still God. Just like ice, liquid, and water vapor are still the same element of water. If you can't believe that Jesus is God, that is a very real issue (as commented above).

If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'

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By answering this way, Jesus was proclaiming himself to be God.

John 1:17-29
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

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When Jesus was baptized, the Spirit of God came and rested on him.