Saints

[pacing4christ]

Hi, I'm new to the board but have a question i've been faced with several times about our Catholic faith. Does it say anywhere in the Bible on how we should pray to saints or is that just part of our tradition? Thanks and God bless,
pacing4christ

 

[Paul S]

The Bible doesn't tell us how to pray to saints, but it doesn't really tell us how to pray to God, either. Jesus does give some rules, such as not praying in a way meant to show off your holiness to others, but it's really personal preference.

In liturgical prayer to saints, particularly the collects said at Mass and in the Office, the usual formula involves asking God to aid us in some attribute of that saint (for example, if the saint of the day is a virgin, we might ask for innocence or purity, if a martyr, courage, and so on), through that saint's intercession.

Here's the prayers for yesterday, St. Scholastica, and today, Our Lady of Lourdes:

O God, who for a testimony to the path of innocency didst cause the soul of blessed Scholastica, thy Virgin, to enter heaven in the appearance of a dove : grant unto us, that by her merits and intercession we may walk in such innocency of life ; that we may be worthy to attain to everlasting felicity. Through our Lord Jesus Christ Thy Son, who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. Amen.

O God, who by the Immaculate Conception of the blessed Virgin Mary didst consecrate a dwelling-place meet for thy Son : we humbly pray thee ; that we, observing the appearing of the same blessed Virgin, may obtain thy healing, both in body and soul. Through the same Jesus Christ our Lord Thy Son, who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. Amen.

 

[Michelina]

My grandmother was named Scholastica (Scolastica in Italian).

In response to the OP:

Where does one get the idea that everything is in the Bible?

That's a Sola Scriptura assumption (Not found in SS).

Unwritten Tradition is just as Sacred as the SS.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Hi, I'm new to the board but have a question i've been faced with several times about our Catholic faith. Does it say anywhere in the Bible on how we should pray to saints or is that just part of our tradition? Thanks and God bless,
pacing4christ

Pacing4Christ, peace be with you,

Here is a small primer on the Bible and Tradition. Perhaps it will help explain some things to you;
.
.
.
.
.
9. Where did Tradition come from?

In the very beginning of Christianity after the death of Christ, the Bible—namely, the New Testament—simply did not exist; it had not been written yet. For many years after Christ’s death, all that people really had as a basis for their faith was what had been passed down by the Apostles through word or action. Since most people could not even read or write anyway, Christianity was practically sustained through the tradition of handing down what they have learned from the Apostles and elders that preceded them. It was these traditions which were handed down from the Apostles that preserved Christianity in the very beginning, and this is in a nutshell, what the Church termed; “Apostolic Tradition”.

Many people today discount Tradition on the basis that the “Bible alone” (Sola Scriptura) should be the authority of God. While it is true that the Bible forms a basic framework of the nature of God and salvation, it is clear that there was still valuable instruction from Christ and the Apostles that were passed down orally. In his letter to the Thessalonians, Paul reminds them of this; “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thess. 2:15). And in his letter to the Corinthians “I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.” [1 Cor 11:2]

There is no doubt that Apostolic Tradition is both Biblical and historical, and as detailed in the next section, it was through Apostolic Tradition that the Church was able to discern which books to include in the New Testament.[1]




10. Where did the Bible come from?

After a few hundred years following the death of Christ, the Catholic Church saw the need to put together a unified compilation of documents to set as a standard written authority. At the Council of Rome in 382 A.D., the Church met under the authority of Pope Damasus I and gathered all writings she had discerned to be “God breathed”, while discarding all other heretical documents. It was at this council that the Church--through the knowledge of what the Apostles taught and the grace of the Holy Spirit--finally decided on the twenty-seven books that now make up the New Testament. This list (canon) was reaffirmed at subsequent councils (Hippo in 393 A.D. and Carthage in 397 A.D.), and was officially recognized as the infallible word of God. Both Sacred Scripture and Apostolic Tradition then became the centerpiece of authority for the Catholic Church (together, both make up our Deposit of Faith), as both were officially acknowledged as divinely inspired and infallible, meaning; they cannot be added to, subtracted from, or changed in any way. And as such, the Catholic Church has sought to preserve Scripture and Tradition in their entirety throughout history.





11. “Bible Alone” vs. “Bible and Tradition”

For thousands of years, the Catholic Church has held the Bible and Tradition as her final authority of God, as both work in conjunction with and expound upon one another. It wasn’t until the reformation in the 16th century when the reformers did away with Tradition altogether, mistakenly calling it the “traditions of man”. It is for this reason that Protestants today generally view the Bible alone as their final authority; a belief also known as; “Sola Scriptura”, or; from Scripture alone. This doctrine was created during the reformation, and is interesting enough, an unbiblical concept. Nowhere in Scripture is it written that Scripture is the sole authority of God’s word.

Another problematic area is one of irony; Protestants easily accept the New Testament as God’s infallible word, and yet reject the authority of the Catholic Church which provided it. One question that immediately arises is; why would God give the Catholic Church the Holy Spirit to create the New Testament cannon, but not give the Catholic Church the same Holy Spirit to be able to discern and interpret what it says? It is a trap to fall into this new way of thinking that Scripture is the end-all of everything. We must always keep in mind that the Bible was created for the Church, not the other way around.



"Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own ‘always, to the close of the age’.” [Catechism of the Catholic Church, 80]





12. The Catholic Bible and the Protestant Bible

As you may already be aware, Catholic Bibles contain seven Old Testament books that Protestant Bibles do not have. This is because Protestants use the Jewish Old Testament canon, while Catholics use the Greek Old Testament canon. These seven Old Testament books are known as the Deuterocanonicals (often incorrectly labeled in Protestant circles as the “Apocrypha”), and with the exception of these books, both Catholic and Protestant Bibles are the same.

So where did this difference come from? Why is there this discrepancy? Put simply, the Greek canon is the canon that was widely accepted by the Apostles and the early church. It wasn’t until roughly 90 A.D.[2][6] when the Jewish cannon was created for the Jewish people (who, lets not forget, denied the divinity of Jesus Christ), and it is this canon which the Protestant reformers chose to adopt into their Bibles in the 16th century. But prior to the reformation, every Bible contained the seven deuterocanonicals found in the original Greek canon, and it is this same canon that the Catholic Church has used, and continues to use today.





13. Personal Interpretation vs. Church Authority

As we have previously discussed, the reformation effectively set the stage for people to interpret the Bible in any way they saw fit, and we have proof of this with the thousands of Protestant denominations in existence today. But how does this pertain to the individual? One may say to this; “The Holy Spirit living within me will guide me, just as He will for everyone else who belongs to Christ”. But how can we completely trust ourselves in all things? We have to keep in mind that Satan is the greatest of all deceivers. Luther probably thought he was being lead by the Holy Spirit when he paved the way to the first great schism from the Catholic Church in 1517 A.D. Then Henry VIII came along who probably thought the Holy Spirit lead him to the true interpretation of the Bible [3][7], which formed the Anglican denomination in 1534 A.D. Then John Calvin disagreed with the first two denominations, and thus formed his own theology in 1555 A.D. Then John Knox appeared on the scene, who probably thought that he at last had the true interpretation of the Bible, and thus began the Presbyterian denomination in 1560 A.D. Then the Congregationalists, the Episcopalians, the Baptists, the Methodists, and so on and so forth.

All of these Churches were founded by men, each drawing their own unique personal interpretations (which even Scripture warns against; 2 Peter 1:20, Acts 8:30). But it is only the Catholic Church that has preserved with the same interpretation for nearly two-thousand years. And so, as a Catholic, we must put our faith in God’s ability to direct and preserve His Church on earth, even though we may not yet fully understand everything She teaches. Understanding will come in time, but the truth of Christ is right before us. Let us not become another person that forms our own easier, more comprehendable—or rather, more human—theology. Being Catholic is not picking and choosing what we believe, but accepting and embracing all of the Church’s infalliable teachings as truth. What we do not understand, we should seek to. And as we continue to live in obedience to the Church, we will begin to see the fruits of our labor, and our minds will slowly be conformed and molded to the mind of Christ.


[1] For more information, see Catechism of the Catholic Church, 120.


http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13756463#_ftnref2


http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=13756463#_ftnref3

 

[pacing4christ]

My grandmother was named Scholastica (Scolastica in Italian).

In response to the OP:

Where does one get the idea that everything is in the Bible?

That's a Sola Scriptura assumption (Not found in SS).

Unwritten Tradition is just as Sacred as the SS.

I agree with that, that unwritten tradition is just as sacred. However, the people questioning me don't, and they just want sola scriptura stuff, so I was jw about it. pacing4christ

 

[Dark_Lite]

Well, the straight-up answer is that it isn't really in the Bible.

It's in OUR Bible but not theirs. The references to people praying in heaven are in the OT.

Sola Scriptura in itself is an erroneous idea. Start there.

Then reference the Biblical passages dealing with how we should onto tradition and stuff.

Then... cite Tradition.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Then you can also cite other Scripture references giving light to the Communion of Saints. If anyone is ever going to believe that those in heaven can pray for us, or that we can ask them for their prayers, then they absolutely must first accept the fact that heaven and earth are not isolated from one another, but instead, deeply connected. Point to the passages in revelation which show the angels in heaven pleading to God to have mercy on the world, and the other passage that explains how the angels present the prayers of the saints to the Father in heaven, and the incense represents their prayers, and so forth.

 

[Rising_Suns]

Here's an excellent article;
.
.
.
.
THE INTERCESSION OF THE SAINTS
". . .we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses . . ." (Hebrews 12:1 - RSV)

What Catholics call the invocation or intercession of the saints means not so much praying to saints, as it does praying with them to God. This devotional practice has strong scriptural warrant, much more than Protestants suppose, since they tend to regard it as idolatrous, without trying to understand the biblical and logical rationale for it. The practice existed with development - from the beginning of the Christianity, and was only questioned at the time of the Protestant Revolt in the 16th century. If anyone, then, is to be accused here of introducing a "late tradition," or of "corrupting" Christian doctrine, it must be Protestantism, not Catholicism.


SAINTS IN THE AFTERLIFE ARE AWARE OF EARTHLY AFFAIRS
Dead Christians are unquestionably more alive and holy than we are, since they are with God (Rev 21:27), and they are aware of earthly events (Heb 12:1, 1 Cor 13:9-12). Some have even come back to earth. For example: Samuel (1 Sam 28:12-15), Moses and Elijah (Mt 17:1-3), and "many saints" (Mt 27:52-3). In all these instances, much communication, and even dialogue, takes place. How, then, could such discourse be considered unlawful and idolatrous? Obviously, God allowed these occurrences, so therefore He must have condoned them. Such "traffic" between heaven and earth lessens the artificial dichotomy which Protestants create by the unspoken, uncritical assumption that those in the "other world" have nothing to do with us in this world. This is neither biblical nor reasonable, and goes against the Bible's view of the one Body of Christ, which is not sundered by death or anything else (see, e.g., Rom 8:38-39).


SAINTS IN THE AFTERLIFE PRAY AND ACT AS INTERMEDIARIES
In Revelation 6:9-10, "the souls of them that were slain" pray for those on earth, using what is known as an "imprecatory prayer," as in Psalms 35:1, 59:1-17, 139:19, and Jer 12:20 against the wicked and on behalf of the righteous. In Revelation 5:8-9, the "24 elders," usually interpreted as representing the Church (perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles), act as intercessory intermediaries, presenting the "prayers of saints." This is just common sense, provided one will allow the possibility of its occurrence. Saints in heaven are not just sitting on clouds playing harps, as our cultural mishmash religion would have it. No, they are vitally active in prayer on our behalf. Thank God they are!


ANGELS ARE AWARE OF OUR THOUGHTS AND ACT AS INTERMEDIARIES
Angels are joyful over sinners' repentance - an inner change of heart (Lk 5:10), and it appears that they observe us (1 Cor 4:9). Like saints, they offer the "prayers of the saints" to God as intercessory intermediaries (Rev 8:3-4). Even "grace" itself is said to come both from God and the "seven spirits before his throne" (Rev 1:4; cf. 3:1, 4:5, 5:6). Again, this all follows from spiritual common sense. All Protestants agree that angels (excluding the demons) are benevolent and active on our behalf. So why is it so difficult to believe that they might be praying for us? All loving beings (whether angels or humans) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is one way of expressing that love. Why should mere location on one "side" of death rather than the other have any bearing on that? Love demands otherwise.


GUARDIAN ANGELS
Many Protestants, such as Billy Graham, agree with the Catholic belief in Guardian Angels for each person. This doctrine is largely derived from Matthew 18:10: ". . . their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven." Other scriptural indications: Ps 34:7, 91:11, Acts 12:15 and Heb 1:14. If God has provided this supernatural protection for us, we must not neglect it on the illogical grounds that it somehow detracts from the worship of God. It's foolish to throw off any of God's provisions for us simply because they don't fit into our preconceived notions of theology, oftentimes perpetuated by unwitting ignorance of the magnificent heritage of Christian Tradition.


THE VENERATION OF SAINTS
If saints and angels are so holy and so aware of our affairs, why should we not ask them to pray for us, since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (Jas 5:16)? Protestants say that this raises them to the level of God (thus, the charge of idolatry). But they need not be all-knowing, nor perfect, like God, only out of time and glorified, to hear our prayers. We venerate them (particularly Mary) because of their proximity to God - this is not worship or adoration, which is reserved for God only. St. Paul urges us to "imitate" him (1 Cor 4:16, Phil 3:17), as he, in turn, imitates Christ (1 Cor 11:1, 1 Thess 1:6), and we are told to honor the "heroes" of the faith (Heb 6:12, 11:1-40, Jas 5:10-11). None of this detracts from the Infinite Glory and Majesty of God in the least. Rather, it enhances it, just as the painter is honored when one admires his masterpiece, and just as the dewdrop can reflect the brightness of the sun.

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ94.HTM

 

[Rising_Suns]

And here's another article from our beloved www.Catholic.com

......
........................
................................................................
........................................................................................................

The Intercession of the Saints
Fundamentalists often challenge the Catholic practice of asking saints and angels to pray on our behalf. But the Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.

Thus, in Psalm 103 we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20–21). And in the opening verses of Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16).

As the following passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.


Hermas
"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).


Clement of Alexandria
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).


Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).


Cyprian of Carthage
"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).


Anonymous
"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).

"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).

"Mother of God,[listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).


Methodius
"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Father—the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).

"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).


Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).


Hilary of Poitiers
"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).


Ephraim the Syrian
"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).


The Liturgy of St. Basil
"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).


Pectorius
"Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).


Gregory of Nazianz
"May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand" (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).

"Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).


Gregory of Nyssa
"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).


John Chrysostom
"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).


Ambrose of Milan
"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).


Jerome
"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).


Augustine
"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).


NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
​