Safer now?

[Zoot]

I thought it was your opinion that the US is hated because of its heightened security, as I mentioned previously I don't understand why that would make someone hate my country.

I meant with regard to the Iraq invasion.

Which is interesting. It means I'm obviously doing something I often accuse others of doing: identifying the invasion of Iraq with the war on terror.

 

[jameseb]

I thought it was your opinion that the US is hated because of its heightened security, as I mentioned previously I don't understand why that would make someone hate my country.

I meant with regard to the Iraq invasion.

Which is interesting. It means I'm obviously doing something I often accuse others of doing: identifying the invasion of Iraq with the war on terror.

Oh, well... as I said before, those who claim to hate us for the war in Iraq most likely hated us before for some other reason. When it comes to my country, there's a long list of reasons people come up with to hate it.

As for the war in Iraq.... yes, I've seen the demonstrations in Rome, Paris, London and across the globe over that war. Funny thing is, they never protested Saddam firing on coalition fighters protecting the no-fly zone, or portested Saddam's use of chemical weapons on his own people in addition to the Iranians. Funny thing those protesters are...

 

[Existential1]

As for the war in Iraq.... yes, I've seen the demonstrations in Rome, Paris, London and across the globe over that war. Funny thing is, they never protested Saddam firing on coalition fighters protecting the no-fly zone, or portested Saddam's use of chemical weapons on his own people in addition to the Iranians. Funny thing those protesters are...

This is simply not true.

Protests, not always taking the form of marches, and not always well publicised or televised: but normally protest through channels; most often simply putting forward perspective which challenged a prevailing orthodoxy; have been going on through most of SH's time in power.

These became starker, and more starightforward to present, when Iraq wnt to war in Iran.
Armed, and it was always felt encouraged, by the West: Iraq instigated what resulted in 100's of thousands being killed and maimed; a WW1 carnage of attrition, of advanced weaponary, and retarded leadership.

These protests did not register, because that is the way of things, in modern society: you simply envelope protest in the sheer scale of things; and the voice of protest is stillborn.

For protest to register in modern society: you need to pass a tipping point of concern and reaction, and media interest.
So homosexual issue protest registers: because it has reached such tipping point; not because of numbers involved, or intrinsic relative seriousness of issue.

Personally, I think you exploit and discredit freedom of speech, in such drive-by shootings of straw men: where, in some small way, the unreasonable prejudice you thereby bring into being and play, as strong illusion one might say; may well find some taget in harming, distressing, or otherwise disadvantaging real people, in the real world.

 

[jameseb]

This is simply not true.

No, its actually 100% true.

These protests did not register, because that is the way of things, in modern society: you simply envelope protest in the sheer scale of things; and the voice of protest is stillborn.

Sounds like an excuse to be honest, Ext1. Again, there were not hundreds of thousands of people throughout Europe protesting Saddam for slaughtering hundreds of thousands of his own people.... and no, that didn't escape the news.... that would have made news.

For protest to register in modern society: you need to pass a tipping point of concern and reaction, and media interest.

That tipping point seems to be anything that the US is doing. As for taking into consideration media concern, that is most certainly baseless. Hundreds of thousands of people taking the streets in protest against anything would attract the media. Please, let's be honest about this.

Personally, I think you exploit and discredit freedom of speech, in such drive-by shootings of straw men: where, in some small way, the unreasonable prejudice you thereby bring into being and play, as strong illusion one might say; may well find some taget in harming, distressing, or otherwise disadvantaging real people, in the real world.

Ext1, are you familiar with the difference between disagreeing with a person's point of view and being an intellectual fascist? How exactly have I "exploited and discredited freedom of speech?" Drive-by shootings of straw men...? Mate, are we on the same wavelength here? I made a very valid point, there's nothing 'straw' about it.... its pretty 'concrete' to be exact.

 

[Existential1]

That tipping point seems to be anything that the US is doing.

.

This is true.

Simply because the USA is so powerful, that its global footprint is so great: what the USA does do, especially but not only when it is wrong; is always going to be part of any tipping point.

But that is not prejudice and rhetoric: that is power and scale of particpation; throw a random dart, and you will hit an elephant more often than a gnat.

Ext1, are you familiar with the difference between disagreeing with a person's point of view and being an intellectual fascist? How exactly have I "exploited and discredited freedom of speech?" Drive-by shootings of straw men...? Mate, are we on the same wavelength here? I made a very valid point, there's nothing 'straw' about it.... its pretty 'concrete' to be exact

You got to forgive me jameseb. I was saving it up for someone who could cope with it, and who was open to it by virtue of their conviction. I stand by the assessment: but I wouldn't have unloaded it on anyone who was not as strong as you.

I'm exploring prejudice just now, and knitting it in to what I take to be Pauline thought: that's where the "strong illusion" reference comes from; if I've got my Biblical geography right.
Just trying to understand what is driving the USA right now: and I find it difficult not to see systemic prejudice, driven sometimes by Christian perspective; and you are such an open advocate of much of the perspective and value involved.

I'll consider the "intellectual fascist" designation. It's possibly correct. To deal with this exploration of the USA and Christianity, I'm spending far more time with fundamentalists and Biblical literalist: and their general methodology can often be the cruel love, of an intellectual and doctrinal intolerance, to anyhting but the truth, and as they see it.
But, they have the perspectival kit I need to explore this: so maybe intellectual fascism is like an industrial illness; part of the territory, if you insist on using certain methods. We'll see.

 

[SuzQ]

I am in agreement. Those that hate USA with unbridled passion that which birthed 9-11, understand strength and prey on weakness.

Add me to the agreement list as well. We're certainly not Fort Knox now, but our nation is a heck of a lot more observant to our surroundings when we travel, and at large events. (I travel for my job by airplane quite a bit - I feel as safe as can be, as far as that goes). The rest of the world? Well, ask the potential "shoe bomber" who had several passengers jump him on that flight leaving Paris!

However, to be fair, the only concern I have is the Summer Olympics, simply because it will be located in Greece. That's a little too close for comfort, from where a lot of these networks work out of.

Also, whether Bush wins or loses, it won't make any difference to the goal of terrorism. So what if we didn't invade Iraq? How can you possibly realistically measure in quantity the increased number of terrorists before or after Iraq? They've always been there - it's just that they obviously became more vocal to Al Jazeera when we invaded Iraq. They hate the U.S. because of our wealth and power - no matter what. Don't forget about the hostage crisis, as well as Clinton being in office the first time the World Trade Center was attacked and bombed, folks.

Finally, on a side note to Gunny - You just plain ROCK, you know that? Thank you for the reminder of the U.S.S. Cole - I am originally from Fond du Lac, WI and losing one of our own hometown boys affected the whole community.

 

[BarbB]

Do you have any theories on why there are people in the world who hate the US enough to kill themselves and many others?

Islamic deception?

 

[BarbB]

Finally, on a side note to Gunny - You just plain ROCK, you know that?

I agree, Gunny definitely rocks!

 

[Ampmonster]

even if slightly, yes. tis safer!

 

[SuzQ]

Islamic deception?

newlamb, considering they hate Christians, as well as those who support and protect Jews, I think you hit the nail on the head. Not to mention that they often kill us "in the name of Allah", (such as 9/11) and are supposedly promised a "muslim heaven" for doing so. However, it IS deception, and not all Muslims take it to that extreme, to be fair.

Our nation is also obviously wealthy & obscenely spends money on unimportant things. (If you've ever seen "Cribs" or "The Fabulous Life of So & So"). I agree with that impression. However, that doesn't mean I'm going to stand in front of some rapper's house, like Puff Daddy, and blow myself up & others with me - all because he has more than one Rolls Royce. Who cares!! I just try to help and pray for others that go without.

Hmmmm, I think that's why Jews and Christians have a commandment from "our" God that specifically states "Thou shall not covet". Take care of you & your own, amen.

 

[praying]

Yes sir'ee, that Osama bin Laden {born into a rich successful family business) sure knows about that!


In contrast to elanor (no surprise ) I feel safer. I think its common sense that security in the US is much, much greater than it was prior to 9/11. Now asking to what degree one feels safer might be a more interesting question as I don't feel any amount of security will stop those who have one single-minded goal to harm us.

Can I say that where you live, has lot to do with your safety comfort level. Where I, going into NYC everyday, sometimes feel like a sitting duck!! Come to NYC and live or commute here you won't feel so safe then as the National Guardsmen greet you when you get off the train with machine guns and bomb sniffing dogs. Then you think to yourself, they are going to just go right along with me if something was to happen because there really isn't enough of them to do anything, it's a facade of safety. Alas you just have to go on with life though. When 9/11 happened I was taking the bus into the city and for a long time riding through the Lincoln tunnel was extremely unnerving.

No I don't feel safer I feel more targeted than ever actually.


Let's face facts though, what are they going come after in Arkansas

 

[revolutio]

US security is much tighter now, but we have also given people more cause to be aggressive towards us. I can't say for certain exactly how these two compare to one another. I would wager we are less safe given how small of groups terrorists can function in, killing or inprisoning them might make them less effective but those remaining individuals are still quite dangerous.

I personally have never felt unsafe, but maybe I am just apathetic.

 

[Valkyr]

I definitely don't think the world is a safer place. I don't even think the US is safer. A week ago when I flew into Colorado I realized halfway through my flight that I'd completely forgotten to remove the knife that I always carry in the front pocket of my backpack. The knife was in no way hidden, nor were there any other metal objects in the bag (and even if there were, shouldn't security STILL be able to detect a KNIFE?!). Not only that, but this isn't even a small knife we're talking about here. It's a 3-inch blade designed for camping, hiking and rock climbing. When I realized it was in my bag my first thought was to hand it over to someone on the flight crew, but then I realized that could be a disaster.

Anyway, I was completely appalled that security didn't detect and confiscate my knife, and I definitely don't feel secure flying anymore. If it's that easy to get a knife onto a plane, are we REALLY any safer than we were before 9/11? I don't think so.

 

[renegade pariah]

Security is a subjective perception. There are any number of disasters that can occur at any time, some manmade and some natural. Some people are comforted by the presence of armed guards and jets flying overhead, however every day crimes are committed against people by other people and the authorities are unable to prevent them. However the authorities have shown that they are capable of punishing some of those responsible for promoting the hatred which influences others to act violently. Unfortunately the methodology used also punished many innocent bystanders. The scrutiny which people matching certain racial characteristics are now under, will only force the enemy to be more cautious in the future. Cycles of violence propagated by either side in conflict just lead to more violence. The very notion that terrorists can be universally cornered and captured or eliminated, has proven our resources to be only partially effective against certain targets. Another problem is the misuse of the word terrorist. Anyone resisting the US is called terrorist, when actually people resist the US for any number of reasons, one important reason being that the US or its allies have killed a relative for no good reason. Three years ago America held a certain moral high ground in the international community that was recovering from scepticism of the Vietnam conflict. Now the skepticism is back, and the enemy has been rewarded by being given more media exposure than they deserve. Certainly foreign governments will be very cautious in openly supporting terrorists, or denouncing the US in expectation of a backlash, but the problem of terrorism has not been solved. The competency of American leadership in world affairs is also at question, in a time where new spheres of cooperation and influence are being forged abroad.

 

[Zoot]

Oh, well... as I said before, those who claim to hate us for the war in Iraq most likely hated us before for some other reason. When it comes to my country, there's a long list of reasons people come up with to hate it.

Well, this is what I'm asking you. Why do you think they hate America?


As for the war in Iraq.... yes, I've seen the demonstrations in Rome, Paris, London and across the globe over that war. Funny thing is, they never protested Saddam firing on coalition fighters protecting the no-fly zone, or portested Saddam's use of chemical weapons on his own people in addition to the Iranians. Funny thing those protesters are...

Yeah, that's because protesting against a US-backed dictator's warcrimes is pretty useless. The dictator doesn't care, the dictator's people can't change things even if they do care, and there weren't a bunch of governments considering joining the Kurd-gassing venture. However, when a powerful country's government, who claims to care about things like law and democracy, prepares to skip due process and invade a country as punishment for crimes there's questionable evidence of, people can respond. Protesting will actually accomplish something:

Demonstrating the will of democratic people in the world to the American government.
Demonstrating the will of democratic people in the world to the American people.
Demonstrating the will of people in a country to their government.

For me, my reason for protesting was mainly the last one. I didn't want my government to support that invasion in my name without me having said as loudly as possible that they're not representing my view if they do. Joining the millions of people worldwide expressing their opposition to the crime was also a factor - every little bit counts.

 

[hyperborean]

I definitely don't think the world is a safer place. I don't even think the US is safer. A week ago when I flew into Colorado I realized halfway through my flight that I'd completely forgotten to remove the knife that I always carry in the front pocket of my backpack. The knife was in no way hidden, nor were there any other metal objects in the bag (and even if there were, shouldn't security STILL be able to detect a KNIFE?!). Not only that, but this isn't even a small knife we're talking about here. It's a 3-inch blade designed for camping, hiking and rock climbing. When I realized it was in my bag my first thought was to hand it over to someone on the flight crew, but then I realized that could be a disaster.

Anyway, I was completely appalled that security didn't detect and confiscate my knife, and I definitely don't feel secure flying anymore. If it's that easy to get a knife onto a plane, are we REALLY any safer than we were before 9/11? I don't think so.

I was out of the country when 9-11 happened and on the 13th at Miami IAP the security basically told us to remove nail files and pencils and other silly ****. I wasn't even frisked. Granted it was only a couple of days after.

 

[2001MustangGT]

The world is NOT a safer place according to the International Institute for Stategic Studies.
I first posted about this here:


http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=8067860#post8067860



Yes Bush is so great that even his own IISS (International Institute for Strategic Studies) blasted him for making the world a more dangerous place. The IISS said that Bush has fueled anti-American sentiment across the globe and destroyed our alliances and therefore made America much less safe.

The signifigance of this is that the IISS is not a lefty-liberal Bush bashing entity. It is a major part of Bush's republican/conservative base and is supposed to be promoting Bush's agenda. Instead it publicly criticizes him in a very harsh way, and Bush has never disagreed with what the IISS says in the past.

So the answer is NO. The world is actually MORE dangerous now.

 

[2001MustangGT]

Read some of these articles on this link for more proof that the world is NOT a safer place, but is in fact more dangerous.
http://www.iiss.org/news.php?selectID=&pageOffset=1&cat=&displayRecords=30

 

[zoe_uu]

Are we safer now? I don't know. But I do know that I don't feel safer now, which is exactly what some people in power want, I think. It's funny.. I wasn't scared on 9/11, and yes I was here in the States when that happened, but there are times I am scared now. This isn't over, not by a long shot, and I fear that as long as the same attitude of revenge on both sides stays, it's just going to keep getting worse and worse...

 

[Ganymede]

Do you have any theories on why there are people in the world who hate the US enough to kill themselves and many others?

I think this is a very complex question with no absolutely right and wrong answers. Many different groups of people hate America and they each will have their reasons for doing .



In the case of the Muslim extremist however, I think the number one reason is the US’s consistent support for Israel. In the Arab world Israel is seen as an aggressive regime that is illegally occupying Arab lands and more importantly Muslim Holy sites. The Arabs recognise that without the US long term support Israel would be unable to hold on to the occupied territories, if indeed it could survive at all. It is the US therefore, that is seen by the Muslim extremist as the ultimate target – the only way that they can see to achieve their goal of re-gaining the occupied territories is to destroy the US’s willingness to continue to support Israel.