Sadness in heaven?

Tellyontellyon

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After judgement day, the people who have truly accepted Jesus will go to heaven, but many others will go to hell. This is for ever I think.
It sounds like a terrible fate to spend eternity in such suffering and that is a good reason to avoid it!
But let's say you do get to heaven by relying on Jesus and not foolishly relying on just being a good person, it will still be the case that many, many people, perhaps the majority will be in hell.
If God is a God of truth and justice, then the saved will not be blind to that fact and will see the necessity of it.... but for loving, merciful beings, won't there be sorrow too? Won't it be sad to spend eternity in heaven knowing people, perhaps even people you loved in life will be suffering for ever without respite?
It's bound to take the shine off things isn't it?
 

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"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.'" - Revelation 21:1-4

This leads me to believe that there won't be sadness in Heaven, at least not lasting sadness.
 
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Broken Fence

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After judgement day, the people who have truly accepted Jesus will go to heaven, but many others will go to hell. This is for ever I think.
It sounds like a terrible fate to spend eternity in such suffering and that is a good reason to avoid it!
But let's say you do get to heaven by relying on Jesus and not foolishly relying on just being a good person, it will still be the case that many, many people, perhaps the majority will be in hell.
If God is a God of truth and justice, then the saved will not be blind to that fact and will see the necessity of it.... but for loving, merciful beings, won't there be sorrow too? Won't it be sad to spend eternity in heaven knowing people, perhaps even people you loved in life will be suffering for ever without respite?
It's bound to take the shine off things isn't it?
The thought that keeps me awake is that God will require them being cast into hell at my hand. That is what God requires for a watchman who did not warn that person.
 
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disciple Clint

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After judgement day, the people who have truly accepted Jesus will go to heaven, but many others will go to hell. This is for ever I think.
It sounds like a terrible fate to spend eternity in such suffering and that is a good reason to avoid it!
But let's say you do get to heaven by relying on Jesus and not foolishly relying on just being a good person, it will still be the case that many, many people, perhaps the majority will be in hell.
If God is a God of truth and justice, then the saved will not be blind to that fact and will see the necessity of it.... but for loving, merciful beings, won't there be sorrow too? Won't it be sad to spend eternity in heaven knowing people, perhaps even people you loved in life will be suffering for ever without respite?
It's bound to take the shine off things isn't it?
Should not be a problem since the people in hell will have gone there of their own free will. God sends no one to hell people send themselves there.
 
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Blade

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We can't save anyone. We do not have some kind of power that we can draw people to God. That only comes from Him. I have heard stories.. where they said God told them to speak to so and so. And they didn't. Then they died the next day. And they said God said they will answer for that life.

Sound right huh? Yeah.. no I don't believe it. See once I wanted the lord to help my wifes faith. I won't share what happened. But I prayed for something. I had this thought "you knew what I was going to pray for. So you have already set in motion the answer". That one made me cry.. still does. See He is out side of time. And we think this one moment God is confined to? He knew about it before we were born. He knew what choice YOU would made.

And you think MAN is MANS last hope? What always gets me is we hear with out JESUS your lost forever. So Jesus rose YES AMEN PRAISE GOD! And He then hangs around 40 more days. Never hitting the streets. How many died in those places He was at not hearing? Yeah..He wasn't on some corner screaming TURN BURN! There is SO MUCH more to this then we see.

Watchman.. we are all watchmen. No one salvation is based on man. We can't save anyone. Really? He shows up over and over in dreams visions.. just Him. And we think we have some power over His creation? See we think He needs us that is not written. He can do all this with out us. God needs nothing. He made the choice to use us. Really? We can't even save our self.. and you think someones else life is in our hands? He draws them.. not us. No man will glory in His sight.

Where my mom worked.. she saw people dying.. some not talking almost dead. She knew some.. so she would pray give them one more chance.. and some would pop up and walk around.. and got saved.. died the next day. GOD knows the heart. He knew each one of us.. He knows what we need.. anyway..
 
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Aussie Pete

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After judgement day, the people who have truly accepted Jesus will go to heaven, but many others will go to hell. This is for ever I think.
It sounds like a terrible fate to spend eternity in such suffering and that is a good reason to avoid it!
But let's say you do get to heaven by relying on Jesus and not foolishly relying on just being a good person, it will still be the case that many, many people, perhaps the majority will be in hell.
If God is a God of truth and justice, then the saved will not be blind to that fact and will see the necessity of it.... but for loving, merciful beings, won't there be sorrow too? Won't it be sad to spend eternity in heaven knowing people, perhaps even people you loved in life will be suffering for ever without respite?
It's bound to take the shine off things isn't it?
No. We will understand all things and we will see everything from God's perspective. We will see that God is perfectly just and everyone that is not in heaven is where they should be. It is also an unfortunate reality that the same people will be exactly where they chose to be and where they want to be. If people turn away from God in this life, they will not want to be where He is in the next.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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No. We will understand all things and we will see everything from God's perspective. We will see that God is perfectly just and everyone that is not in heaven is where they should be. It is also an unfortunate reality that the same people will be exactly where they chose to be and where they want to be. If people turn away from God in this life, they will not want to be where He is in the next.
I'm not saying an more than what you say, except I wonder if the saved will still feel sadness for the lost, even if it is their own choice/fault? I would find it hard to think of those people and not feel sad. I couldn't imagine a God who didn't feel sad about it, even if things had to be that way.

Or is it not for ever? One person said eternal damnation wasn't scriptural? It would be very sad otherwise.
 
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Tellyontellyon

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the one that is lost is a perception of self/truth that is a lie ... it never was ... and therefore will not be remembered.
That's an interesting bit of scripture, can you give me the chapter and verse please so I may investigate further?
 
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TzephanYahu

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Hello @Tellyontellyon

Let me first just say, I really think it's cool that you keep asking so many questions about Christianity (and tricky ones too) as a Buddhist. It shows you have a open mind and hungry intellect.

If God is a God of truth and justice, then the saved will not be blind to that fact and will see the necessity of it.... but for loving, merciful beings, won't there be sorrow too? Won't it be sad to spend eternity in heaven knowing people, perhaps even people you loved in life will be suffering for ever without respite?
It's bound to take the shine off things isn't it?

It's a good point, but we can look at it in the following two ways....

1. According to the Book of Jubilees (a book found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and probably used to be part of the Bible before it was removed) it describes how all spirits were created on day 1. ALL spirits. Not just the Malakhim (angels) but it would seem even you and I as well. We all had a set time for "appearing" and working on this earth, devised by Him, at the beginning. Then, we return to the Father to give account of how we spent our life of freedom - whether in obedience and respect of Him and others, or not. My point being, that we have no recollection of living before we were born. So perhaps it will be the same when we enter into New Jerusalem. Maybe such memories will be no more?

2. Imagine you recently lost a grandparent and it really cut you up. However, 3 days after, you meet an good old friend you you haven't seen for years - who awards you with your dream job, your own private island and 250 million to spend as you wish. On top of this, he provides you a drink, born from from the latest developments in medical research, that can heal every ailment you have and restores your vitality. It works and, beyond this, restores you to your prime state - protected forever against all disease, viruses and decay. Now, on THAT day, would your heart still be downcast for your grandparent? It's not that you no longer care for them, it's just that you are so overwhelmed with good news and excitement, it pales in comparison. One day the righteous with have much more than these things. They will be in a realm when time is not a dimension that effects them anymore. They will be with the Creator Himself who knows them more than they know themselves, seeing wonders that can't be described, beauty without measure, power without bounds and experiencing unprecedented new highs of love, joy and peace.

When we lose someone, it can consume our days. Yet, when we sleep, often our dreams are unencumbered by the sorrow and instead thrive without the boundaries of sadness. So perhaps it will be like that?

Or perhaps Yahweh will have a way of removing our sadness for the life we have just been through and the loved ones we have lost...

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." - Revelation 21:4

Keep on asking questions!

Love & Shalom
 
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That's an interesting bit of scripture, can you give me the chapter and verse please so I may investigate further?

i would have to quote the entire book, but a good place to start is with the three questions God asked Adam/man

“Where are you?”
“Who told you that you were naked?”
“Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?”
 
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Tolworth John

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Won't it be sad to spend eternity in heaven knowing people, perhaps even people you loved in life will be suffering for ever without respite?

Yes we will feel sadness when we learn that X is not there, but we will also learn that X had many opportunities to accept Jesus and that X did not take them.
That sadness will not last for eternity. The lost will have no power or influence over those who are with Jesus.
As an aside the torment of hell will be the realisation of what they have lost and of all those missed opportunities to change. There torment will be the self torment of the ' if only ', or ' why didn't I ' etc etc etc
 
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Aussie Pete

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I'm not saying an more than what you say, except I wonder if the saved will still feel sadness for the lost, even if it is their own choice/fault? I would find it hard to think of those people and not feel sad. I couldn't imagine a God who didn't feel sad about it, even if things had to be that way.

Or is it not for ever? One person said eternal damnation wasn't scriptural? It would be very sad otherwise.
I used to be hard hearted. I thought those who reject the gospel are hell bound and it serves them right. God has changed me over the decades. He takes no delight in the death of the wicked. The reality is that this life settles our future for eternity. That's why there is a crying need for the church to quit playing games and be the witness that God calls us to be.

This world system is headed for destruction. People who were born into the current generation don't know what it is like to have free speech, to be able to disagree with the status quo without fear of retribution. Australia does not have a lot of natural snow. We have plenty of artificial snowflakes, courtesy of PC universities racing to prove their Marxist/progressive (there's a perfect example of an oxymoron) credentials. The so-called democracies of the English speaking nations are descending into oblivion. God knows exactly what is going on. He know when He will pull the pin on the world. It cannot be all that far away.
When people die, they will face God as they are. They will be either alive or dead. I do not believe in a physical hell like the cartoon version with dungeons and fork tailed demons with pitchforks. It will be a spiritual condition. People who are separated from God in this life will remain so in the next. And yes, I can see nothing in God's word to suggest that it is not eternal.
 
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If God is a God of truth and justice, then the saved will not be blind to that fact and will see the necessity of it.... but for loving, merciful beings, won't there be sorrow too? Won't it be sad to spend eternity in heaven knowing people, perhaps even people you loved in life will be suffering for ever without respite?
This is the kind of question that brings forth all sorts of speculations. That's all we can do, since the answer to the question has not been given to us in Scripture and there is no reason for us to know the answer anyway.

But I think we should also keep in mind that the human mind has not conceived of what eternal life, heaven, actually means. All we have been given because its all we can comprehend in this life are hints. I have no doubt that many questions like yours that seem so meaningful to us here and now will be easily resolved when we reach the other side where, as the Bible says, He will wipe away all tears. (Revelation 21:4).
 
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Halbhh

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After judgement day, the people who have truly accepted Jesus will go to heaven, but many others will go to hell. This is for ever I think.
It sounds like a terrible fate to spend eternity in such suffering and that is a good reason to avoid it!
But let's say you do get to heaven by relying on Jesus and not foolishly relying on just being a good person, it will still be the case that many, many people, perhaps the majority will be in hell.
If God is a God of truth and justice, then the saved will not be blind to that fact and will see the necessity of it.... but for loving, merciful beings, won't there be sorrow too? Won't it be sad to spend eternity in heaven knowing people, perhaps even people you loved in life will be suffering for ever without respite?
It's bound to take the shine off things isn't it?
It can help to get a more full remembrance or realization of just what it means for someone to hurt someone else intentionally (do evil: intentional harm to someone else). It's not a small thing, because we aren't talking about someone walked in front of you rudely without looking, but something more real and significant like someone slandered you for instance, and then the group looking at whether to hire you did not because of the slander, and you lost your place to live, not having income, for example.

In general (to also answer the other question you just posted a bit ago), to do evil is to intentionally hurt others with full understanding (not just accidentally or without a clue of the consequences).

And we have a very clear, precise rule to show this, to say what is good/right action, and thus evil is to break this general rule of good actions:

Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.

So, you see, since an evil action done against someone could for instance cause the assaulted person to spiral downward for instance, and lose so much, it's not at all small when a person destroys some other person's reputation or ability to trust and love, and so on. But a murderous action, pretty often, even if the actual death is long delayed. That's why the consequence of the "second death" where those without eternal life "perish" (John 3:16) (it doesn't say that those perishing have eternal life....) is a practical end -- those that would do what are in a profound way murderous (to love) actions towards others in the many not-love ways aren't well suited to live together with others in eternity.

So, you see, we all need a true repentance.

It's humble to repent, but the humble can do so.

And that's why Christ came (and also would later preach to all the "spirits in prison" also(!) -- those who had died without hearing the gospel some think is the general meaning) -- He came to save the lost that would be willing to repent.


29Then Levi held a great banquet for Jesus at his house, and a large crowd of tax collectors and others were eating with them. 30But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law who belonged to their sect complained to his disciples, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”

31Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
Luke 5 NIV


Usually your best place to learn about what Jesus said is only to directly read the accounts of His words, yourself personally (which can be done in just hours, but also takes a lifetime :) ).

This is because there are a great many doctrines some have invented that seem to not read well or fully, and they are widespread, and just wrong. So, relying on people to answer with doctrines won't really help for the deeper questions (such as "what is evil" and so on, and "who will be saved" and so on). Instead of people's opinions and often just mistaken doctrines, you need to go to the source and hear directly the clear and challenging and invigorating and life giving words He spoke. The 4 gospels. I suggest the NIV translation for a first time reading, and than after that the ESV also.
 
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ViaCrucis

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After judgement day, the people who have truly accepted Jesus will go to heaven, but many others will go to hell. This is for ever I think.
It sounds like a terrible fate to spend eternity in such suffering and that is a good reason to avoid it!
But let's say you do get to heaven by relying on Jesus and not foolishly relying on just being a good person, it will still be the case that many, many people, perhaps the majority will be in hell.
If God is a God of truth and justice, then the saved will not be blind to that fact and will see the necessity of it.... but for loving, merciful beings, won't there be sorrow too? Won't it be sad to spend eternity in heaven knowing people, perhaps even people you loved in life will be suffering for ever without respite?
It's bound to take the shine off things isn't it?

I suspect that such a scenario is a good example of why the popular views of "heaven and hell" are inaccurate.

Note that I didn't say the traditional views, but the popular views. There's a difference.

-CryptoLUtheran
 
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Tellyontellyon

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Note that I didn't say the traditional views, but the popular views. There's a difference.
What is your assessment of what hell will be like for those who go there, whether their punishment will be eternal and whether those in heaven will be aware/care about it?
 
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ViaCrucis

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What is your assessment of what hell will be like for those who go there, whether their punishment will be eternal and whether those in heaven will be aware/care about it?

I don't believe that heaven and hell are places, so I wouldn't even describe anyone as going to either.

More specifically, to talk about "heaven" first requires asking what exactly is meant. Because its use has often been used to refer to two different things in Christian thought:

1) The intermediate state between death and resurrection and
2) The ultimate state at the consummation of history after God has renewed all of creation.

In the first instance, I wouldn't describe heaven as a place; but rather the rather indescribable condition of our existence with Christ between death and resurrection. To speak of "going to heaven" is really just a kind of shorthand of that. Since we often speak of God as reigning from heaven (or the heavens), which is itself a kind of complex topic with a lot of history that I won't get into at the moment; but the essence of it is that "heaven" is shorthand for God's sublime presence, not that God is "up there" as opposed to "down here", as God is everywhere, everywhen, beyond all things, through all things, filling all things, etc. But there is a sense of "heaven" is a particular and immediate presence of God that is outside of our comprehension. It is in this sense that we speak of the saints and angels as being in heaven, before God's throne, even as we await the day Christ returns and the dead shall be raised. This is the intermediate state, what happens between death and resurrection.

The second refers to what is called the Age to Come, or Olam ha-Ba in Hebrew, it is the universe at the end of history, after Christ has returned, the dead are raised, and God renews and restores all things, this refers to where in the Bible it speaks of "a new heavens and a new earth". The description of this includes the ultimate union of heaven and earth, described in the Revelation as the heavenly New Jerusalem, the city of God, coming to dwell on the earth, and that God will dwell with man, and man with God, forever; without need of sun, moon, or stars because the very light of God will permeate all things. I would caution against an overly literal reading of the Revelation in its description of these things, the point is the marriage of heaven and earth, the dwelling of God with us in creation, the renewal of all things, and the light and glory of God filling all of creation.

In that sense, then, heaven is more than a place, it's right here on good ol' terra firma; or even bigger picture--it's everywhere and everything. The universe, all that ever was or is or could be, is made new, whole, healed, and glorified forever.

That's how I would answer the matter of heaven.

As for the matter of hell, I would, likewise say that hell isn't a place either. And, of course, we might need to ask "which hell?".

In the same way that there is the intermediate state between death and resurrection in which those who belong to Christ have their rest in Him until the resurrection; there is likewise what is described as the foretaste of the future judgment, known as Gehenna. Gehenna is one of the words that regularly is translated to "hell" in older English Bibles, along with the word Hades, which is somewhat confusing if you're reading an older English translation in which both words are called "hell".

More specifically Hades is the Greek translation chosen for the Hebrew word she'ol, which means "grave" or "pit" and refers to the common place of the dead in ancient Jewish thought. The place of the dead was, in Jesus' time, understood to be divided into two halves: the abode of the righteous dead called Gan-Eden ("the Garden of Eden") or "Paradise" (from the Greek paradaisos, a loan-word from Old Persian which means "an enclosed garden"); and the abode of the wicked dead called Ge-Hinnom ("Valley of Hinnom") or rendered into Greek as Gehenna. The reference to the Garden of Eden is more obvious to anyone with a general familiarity with the stories of the Bible, but the Valley of Hinnom might be less so. The Hinnom Valley is a very literal valley that was located outside the old city of Jerusalem, in Israel's more distant past it was the center for the cult of Molech worship, where the worshipers of Molech committed grotesque acts of child sacrifice by placing living infants upon a red-hot brass idol literally roasting the infant to death. The association of such grotesque an abomination with the valley left a permanent memory in the collective consciousness of the Jewish people, and hence (quite likely) the idea of a place of burning and misery for the wicked (thus the graphic language of fire, darkness, and death we see associated with Gehenna used by Jesus in the Gospels).

In traditional, orthodox Christian thought Christ, by His death descended into Hades and defeated death, sin, hell, and the devil and rose again, this is known as the Harrowing of Hell, and is what is meant in the Apostles' Creed where it says "[Christ] descended into hell", or in the original Latin descendit ad inferos, literally "descended into the lower regions", i.e. the place of the dead. Through this Christ frees and liberates the prisoners in Hades, and the saints who were formerly in Hades are now with Christ as He sits at the right hand of the Father until His coming again.

Now, the second "hell" to talk about is what would be described as the ultimate fate of the wicked. This is referenced, for example, in the Revelation where St. John has a vision of a lake of fire and sulfur into which the devil, death, hell (hades), and all the wicked are cast after the Last Judgment. Again, I'd caution against taking the Revelation literally, there is no literal lake comprised of fire and sulfur, note how even death and hades are cast into this lake. What is significant, I think, is that St. John refers to this as "the second death". That is, here is a death beyond death.

What is a second death, what is this idea of a death that is more than death? That's the question. It's not about going some place called "hell", it's not about being separated from God (as that's impossible, God is everywhere), it's not about some kind of torture chamber for the wicked. It's something other than all this that we just don't really know.

But I will say this, that the idea of a the wicked being tortured for all eternity by flames (real or figurative) by a wrathful God is a very western and medieval idea--think Dante's Inferno. Notably in contrast to this is how the Eastern Churches have talked about hell. In the Orthodox tradition hell is a state of existence in response to the love of God. Whereas for the righteous dwelling in the love of God is immeasurably joyous for the righteous respond to God's love with love, the wicked's response to God's love is remorse, sadness. Thus here heaven and hell are not these two different directions that the righteous and the wicked go after judgment, but rather what it looks like when two different kinds of people experience God's unconditional, abiding, merciful kindness and love.

The fires of hell, from the Orthodox perspective, are the same as the fires of heaven. It is a heavenly, divine fire, the fire of God's love which burns passionately for the whole of creation. It is only "hell" for the wicked because they make it hell for themselves.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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