Sadden much

[seebs]

That verse is a total non-sequitur from your argument.

 

[Immanuel]

That verse is a total non-sequitur from your argument.

The reason why I gave that verse is because....

This person seems to be coming from the thinking of the world. If his little icon wasn't even a cross I would have thought I was talking to a non-believer. Just seems like he's so far away from God and drawing from the worldly thoughts, but then again I don't know him and I am not judging, but I am only trying to discern and I say it how I see it in hopes to bring him closer to God.

Please do not say that this is an argument because it's not. This is why I am not going to say anymore, but pray.

 

[Null-Geodesic]

If the bible is inconsistent and all that you say, then everything that we believe in is a lie, Jesus died for nothing, and any religion will do for salvation.
.

It is not an if. There are inconsistencies and only mental contortionists can blinker themselves otherwise. The rest of your quote is why it is dangerous to be a literalist. You are equating literalism with salvation and belief. Do you know what worshipping a false idol is? I tender to you that you have a serious case of Bible worship. I think you may be in the wrong religion because it is Christianity not Biblianity. I do not know if there is a BiblianForums website.

 

[Null-Geodesic]

The reason why I gave that verse is because....

This person seems to be coming from the thinking of the world. If his little icon wasn't even a cross I would have thought I was talking to a non-believer. Just seems like he's so far away from God and drawing from the worldly thoughts, but then again I don't know him and I am not judging, but I am only trying to discern and I say it how I see it in hopes to bring him closer to God.

Please do not say that this is an argument because it's not. This is why I am not going to say anymore, but pray.

Of course I involve the 'thinking of the world' as you put it. Because that is where we live. It always amazes me when people of a literal bent seem shocked at meeting Christians who are not that way. Yet we are by far the majority of Christians worldwide. Of course this is very much rooted in American fundamentalism with it's shoddy treatment of other Christian groups and it's ignorance of Christianity in general.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

How can these books be 'true' but not 'historically accurate?' There must not have been a King David, or a Solomon or Moses because these are historical figures. Therefore, Jesus could not have lived, because He would also be considered a historical figure. Truth is an all encompassing concept: a thing is either true or it isn't. 4*4 doesn't occasionally equal 15, you can't say 'close enough.' Toss out Genesis and you toss out our foundation, after that you can just pick and choose what you wish to believe and that sounds exactly like what you're doing.

If the purpose of the author is not to write history but rather to convery a message, the lack of historical accuracy is irrelevant to the truth it contains. Also, an account involving a historical figure can be non-historical without the historical figure being non-existent.

Examples:

Shakespeare's Hamlet is a non-historical but it still contains truths.

I read a fictional book with Theodore Roosevelt as a major character. The fact that the book is fictional doesn't make Theodore Roosevelt non-existent.

Finally, the Bible isn't one book but a collection of books of a variety of genres. One does not need to and in fact should not read it entirely in the same way.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Null, just one verse and I need not to say anything else "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will." Romans 12:2

If the bible is inconsistent and all that you say, then everything that we believe in is a lie, Jesus died for nothing, and any religion will do for salvation.

I will not say anything else but that and I will try to keep you in prayer.

Why does it have to be a lie? There is a middle ground between inerrant in all things and errant in all things.

 

[Doc Dilly]

So you believe the Bible is fiction which communicates Truth? Then Jesus is fictional....or He was a real person in a fictional setting? Or He was in a fictional setting as a real person, communicating stories containing the truth, but only occasionally? OR, was Jesus a fictional person, in a real setting, declaring absolute truth, while He worshipped God in a completely figurative sense, while telling true stories made up for the general population?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Bottom line, I think you TE guys are daft and I'm sure you feel the same way about those of us who have faith in the Truth of God's Word.

Oh, I do have an article that I thought might be interesting. A friend of of mine, and fellow creationist, owns his own software company so he is constantly coming across these science articles. TE or Creationist, I think it should be read. I'll go get it...(Doc Dilly rummages around, kicks his pet dragon out of the way...) Oh, here it is..

Actually, it's a story about a gentleman from my alma mater, a little school near Bristol. Parts of it you TE guys will love, I even expect the less mature to be back here with cries of "SEE!?" However, it's about how one man has dealt with his own personal atheism, something which might make God say to us all, "SEE?!" Enjoy.

http://www.worldmag.com/newsite/con...cle.cfm?id=9546

 

[seebs]

This person seems to be coming from the thinking of the world.

Don't be too quick to generalize all thinking as "of the woorld".

If his little icon wasn't even a cross I would have thought I was talking to a non-believer. Just seems like he's so far away from God and drawing from the worldly thoughts, but then again I don't know him and I am not judging, but I am only trying to discern and I say it how I see it in hopes to bring him closer to God.

Maybe what you should focus on is trying to draw yourself closer to God; perhaps, for instance, seeing how other people may also see Him, and through them, coming to understand God better.

 

[Null-Geodesic]

So you believe the Bible is fiction which communicates Truth? Then Jesus is fictional....or He was a real person in a fictional setting? Or He was in a fictional setting as a real person, communicating stories containing the truth, but only occasionally? OR, was Jesus a fictional person, in a real setting, declaring absolute truth, while He worshipped God in a completely figurative sense, while telling true stories made up for the general population?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Bottom line, I think you TE guys are daft and I'm sure you feel the same way about those of us who have faith in the Truth of God's Word.

Oh, I do have an article that I thought might be interesting. A friend of of mine, and fellow creationist, owns his own software company so he is constantly coming across these science articles. TE or Creationist, I think it should be read. I'll go get it...(Doc Dilly rummages around, kicks his pet dragon out of the way...) Oh, here it is..

Actually, it's a story about a gentleman from "the other University" in England. (What one jokingly says about Cambridge if you attended Oxford. But I'll certainly not hold his choice of schools against him.) Parts of it you TE guys will love, I even expect the less mature to be back here with cries of "SEE!?" However, it's about how one man has dealt with his own personal atheism, something which might make God say to us all, "SEE?!" Enjoy.

http://www.worldmag.com/newsite/con...cle.cfm?id=9546

Doc Dilly,

Could you please explain to me what Parables are?

 

[Doc Dilly]

Whoops sorry, about my change on the post. I wrote it down thinking the man was from Cambridge for some reason. Should have known better.

Null asks: Could you please explain to me what Parables are?
My reply:Why? Would it change your mind?

 

[Null-Geodesic]

No but I am puzzled when literalists tell me that we have to believe all the Bible as factual and not fictional. So I am puzzled as to how you intepret the Parables

 

[Immanuel]

No but I am puzzled when literalists tell me that we have to believe all the Bible as factual and not fictional. So I am puzzled as to how you intepret the Parables

I am not telling you what you have to believe or not. That is your decision. It's like God's gift of salvation. It is your decision. Not mine.

I hope that God will bless you with his spirit that you may know what to follow or not to follow. Only he can tell you and only you can choose to listen.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

So you believe the Bible is fiction which communicates Truth? Then Jesus is fictional....or He was a real person in a fictional setting? Or He was in a fictional setting as a real person, communicating stories containing the truth, but only occasionally? OR, was Jesus a fictional person, in a real setting, declaring absolute truth, while He worshipped God in a completely figurative sense, while telling true stories made up for the general population?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Bottom line, I think you TE guys are daft and I'm sure you feel the same way about those of us who have faith in the Truth of God's Word.

Oh, I do have an article that I thought might be interesting. A friend of of mine, and fellow creationist, owns his own software company so he is constantly coming across these science articles. TE or Creationist, I think it should be read. I'll go get it...(Doc Dilly rummages around, kicks his pet dragon out of the way...) Oh, here it is..

Actually, it's a story about a gentleman from my alma mater, a little school near Bristol. Parts of it you TE guys will love, I even expect the less mature to be back here with cries of "SEE!?" However, it's about how one man has dealt with his own personal atheism, something which might make God say to us all, "SEE?!" Enjoy.

http://www.worldmag.com/newsite/con...cle.cfm?id=9546

Parts of the Bible are of fictional genres. Others aren't. Again, it isn't all or nothing.

 

[Doc Dilly]

Null: Well, mate, tell you what puzzles me even more...in the scriptures parables are announced as parables, we are specifically TOLD a story is coming. Nothing wrong with that. Teaching via story is a time honored technique. However, if you or I decide parts of the Bible must be a piece of fiction because we can't see it any other way, then I consider that a problem. I've heard many TE's talk about the book of Genesis as requiring great mental leaps of logic for it to come about as stated and really, if you take it apart and think about, (shrugs shoulder's) it's not that big a stretch. I was raised and trained to be a good evolutionist and I don't even have a problem with it.

So, no doubt we'll go on thinking each other a wee bit tapped, but such is life, eh? I'm sure we'll find out who all is right and wrong about these things soon enough.

But let me ask you, do you consider Genesis to be a type of parable?

 

[Immanuel]

Null: I was raised and trained to be a good evolutionist and I don't even have a problem with it.

Wow, you were trained to be a good evolutionist? So were you like atheist? Que Pasa? What happened? Do tell, do tell.

 

[Doc Dilly]

Immanuel, you sound like a good man and that you would like to hear my tale is indeed complimentary. However, at the present time, my story stays under my hat. It's an iternet thing with me.

But I did come across an interesting article about the start of this whole (and often lame) science vs. God controversy. I found the interview at the end particularly interesting.

http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.18132/article_detail.asp

 

[Immanuel]

Immanuel, you sound like a good man and that you would like to hear my tale is indeed complimentary. However, at the present time, my story stays under my hat. It's an iternet thing with me.

But I did come across an interesting article about the start of this whole (and often lame) science vs. God controversy. I found the interview at the end particularly interesting.

http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.18132/article_detail.asp

I guess you are just one of those computer geeks eh? LoL. Sorry. didn't mean any disrespect. But I would love for you to hear and I'm sure it would be a good encouragement for many here.

 

[Null-Geodesic]

I was raised and trained to be a good evolutionist and I don't even have a problem with it.

... I read these confessions of change i'd be rich. You might be telling the truth but argument from conversion is one of the oldest appeals in the debate arsenal. It also is ironic that most if not all the supposed ex-evolutionists somehow seem to not know anything about their former persuasion. Most curious that, I wonder how it's so?

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

o

Null: Well, mate, tell you what puzzles me even more...in the scriptures parables are announced as parables, we are specifically TOLD a story is coming. Nothing wrong with that. Teaching via story is a time honored technique. However, if you or I decide parts of the Bible must be a piece of fiction because we can't see it any other way, then I consider that a problem. I've heard many TE's talk about the book of Genesis as requiring great mental leaps of logic for it to come about as stated and really, if you take it apart and think about, (shrugs shoulder's) it's not that big a stretch. I was raised and trained to be a good evolutionist and I don't even have a problem with it.

So, no doubt we'll go on thinking each other a wee bit tapped, but such is life, eh? I'm sure we'll find out who all is right and wrong about these things soon enough.

But let me ask you, do you consider Genesis to be a type of parable?

Not all non-literal parts of the Bible announce their non-literalness as clearly as parables, but there is more there than people saying "I can't believe it so it must be non-literal."

 

[Doc Dilly]

Null said:'It also is ironic that most if not all the supposed ex-evolutionists somehow seem to not know anything about their former persuasion. Most curious that, I wonder how it's so?'

My reply: I don't recall ever really discussing my 'former persuasion' on this forum. I mentioned on one thread that I don't respect Darwin, but that's about it. And in that last post, I just mentioned it off-handly and find your anger truly surprising.

Personally, I find it rather wearisome when people come on forums waving their credentials and acting like, "Uh, excuse me, I am Doctor so-and-so, or Professor so-and-so...you may begin kissing my bum at any time...." For me, this is not about 'survival of the fittest,' I'm just chatting.

So, no, I don't have trouble with "In the beginning God..." However, as I was asking before, do you consider Genesis to be a type of parable?

(Oh, I hope you all had a chance to read the article I posted. It is quite good. Well, at least I thought so.)