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Sad but True

awitch

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You know Christians who butchered their own 4 year old children thinking they did so in the service of the Lord? (I think you're stretching the point)

I'm familiar with several stories in the news in which Christians (and other religions) have killed or attempted to kill their own children in the service of God. And those are separate from the cases in which the parents let their children die of common medical conditions because they chose to stay home and pray instead of seeking medical attention.

I'm sure in many cases the real reason is mental illness regardless of the religion of the people involved.
 
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razeontherock

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I'm familiar with several stories in the news in which Christians (and other religions) have killed or attempted to kill their own children in the service of God.

Well killing and attempting to kill are very different things, as are Christians and other religions, as is actual killing from stabbing 40 times and cutting out your own child's liver. I mean like claim to like claim and all ...

I question it's occurrence, but I do appreciate the sentiment that hopefully no such event is actually inspired by the religion but by severely disturbed mental illness ... I don't know enough about the facts of this case to say.
 
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razeontherock

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SanFrank

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This has nothing to do with Islam, it is a mental illness. Instead of believing the voice was created from her own mind, she thought God was telling her to do that. Instead of thinking logically, she thought illogically. What does have to do with what Islam teaches? If she thought about what Islam taught, she would have known God commands the opposite in Islam...to not kill your children..in fact killing another life is only allowed on two conditions per one verse:

The person killed another himself.
The person is causing chaos/mischief in the earth.
I beg to differ on your opinion. I know superstitions are rampant in many muslim nations and hearing Jinn or battling evil forces of satan are only extensions of these superstitions. Goes back to the blowing on knots.
 
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awitch

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This is sad but true, but not equivalent. (I hate terms like "sin of commission" and "sin of ommission," but that's what we're looking at here)

The thing about the Oregon couple was, reliance on faith healing was a completely valid legal defense for murder up until May of 2011 in Oregon. It was actually harder to convict negligent parents for not seeking medical attention for no other reason than they were religious.

If you're looking for stories that are closer to the OP:

Andrea Yates - drowned her 5 children.

Deanna Laney - bludgeoned two sons (6 and 8) with rocks because God told her to. The third child, a 14 month old, old survived being stoned.

Lynn Benedetta - slit the throats of her 11 and 14 year old daughters because she thought the rapture was coming this last May. All survived.

Kevin/Elizabeth Schatz - whipped a 7 year old adopted daughter to death with plastic tubing in the name of god for mispronouncing a word. A fundamentalist Christian group had been promoting that method of punishment for children.

Julia Lovemore - suffocated her 6 week old daughter by shoving pages of the Bible into her mouth, then sat on her.

You can just google "child" "death", and "exorcism" for countless more stories.

In all these cases, it was mental illness, but is it fair to say that religion (in general) is a catalyst for people to act out like this?

If you'll excuse me, I'm going to give my daughter a hug.
 
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Montalban

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Well killing and attempting to kill are very different things, as are Christians and other religions, as is actual killing from stabbing 40 times and cutting out your own child's liver. I mean like claim to like claim and all ...

I question it's occurrence, but I do appreciate the sentiment that hopefully no such event is actually inspired by the religion but by severely disturbed mental illness ... I don't know enough about the facts of this case to say.

You'll find that some don't really care about an injustice. What they care about is finding criticisms of Christians and Christianity. That's another really 'sad but true' here
 
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TG123

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You'll find that some don't really care about an injustice. What they care about is finding criticisms of Christians and Christianity. That's another really 'sad but true' here
As do others who only care about criticizing Muslims and Islam. Like people who will blame Islam for Al Qaeda but not Christianity for the Crusades or call 'muslims' who kill civilians terrorists but 'christians' in the US Army who do so freedom fighters.

A lot of Muslims are guilty of hypocrisy, as are a lot of Christians. Jesus said it is a sin, let's stop doing that and start presenting the Gospel. There are enough mistakes in the Quran to prove Islam is not completely true and therefore not from God without stooping to hypocrisy. Ergo for all other belief systems that reject Jesus and what He did for us, including Judaism.
 
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SanFrank

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The thing about the Oregon couple was, reliance on faith healing was a completely valid legal defense for murder up until May of 2011 in Oregon. It was actually harder to convict negligent parents for not seeking medical attention for no other reason than they were religious.

If you're looking for stories that are closer to the OP:

Andrea Yates - drowned her 5 children.

Deanna Laney - bludgeoned two sons (6 and 8) with rocks because God told her to. The third child, a 14 month old, old survived being stoned.

Lynn Benedetta - slit the throats of her 11 and 14 year old daughters because she thought the rapture was coming this last May. All survived.

Kevin/Elizabeth Schatz - whipped a 7 year old adopted daughter to death with plastic tubing in the name of god for mispronouncing a word. A fundamentalist Christian group had been promoting that method of punishment for children.

Julia Lovemore - suffocated her 6 week old daughter by shoving pages of the Bible into her mouth, then sat on her.

You can just google "child" "death", and "exorcism" for countless more stories.

In all these cases, it was mental illness, but is it fair to say that religion (in general) is a catalyst for people to act out like this?

If you'll excuse me, I'm going to give my daughter a hug.
The point of the OP seems to be the carnage committed in the name of "allah" of islam.

I see you trying to make a case for finding similarities between "Friday the 13th" and "Anne of Green Gables"; I mean between Islam and Christianity.

If death by numbers is your gauge, there were over 100 muslim deaths (at the hands of other muslims) in the name of "allah" just this past week alone and for the sake of decency, I will only post a link in support of this, Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time
 
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Montalban

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As do others who only care about criticizing Muslims and Islam. Like people who will blame Islam for Al Qaeda but not Christianity for the Crusades or call 'muslims' who kill civilians terrorists but 'christians' in the US Army who do so freedom fighters.
Again, thanks for the tu quoque

I'm happy to discuss the crusades - if you can show causal links between them and what Christ taught.

I have many times shown causal links between the violence done by Moslems and Islamic teaching and am more than happy to repeat it here too.

However I note most just want to apologise for Islam with relativist excuses, post-modern deconstruction of historical facts and logical fallacies, such as tu quoque
 
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durangodawood

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...However I note most just want to apologise for Islam with relativist excuses, post-modern deconstruction of historical facts and logical fallacies, such as tu quoque
I love tu quoque! I bust it out every time someone points out a problem they claim is special to this or that religion.
.
 
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awitch

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The point of the OP seems to be the carnage committed in the name of "allah" of islam.

No one denies that. No one here would not condemn the murder of a child for any reason, religious or otherwise.

I see you trying to make a case for finding similarities between "Friday the 13th" and "Anne of Green Gables"; I mean between Islam and Christianity.

OP: Mentally unstable Muslim kills child in name of God.
Me: Mentally unstable Christians kills children in the name of God.
Were the Christians not gory enough for you for them to be similar?
 
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SanFrank

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No one denies that. No one here would not condemn the murder of a child for any reason, religious or otherwise.



OP: Mentally unstable Muslim kills child in name of God.
Me: Mentally unstable Christians kills children in the name of God.
Were the Christians not gory enough for you for them to be similar?
You point out the mental state of these assassins. I point out the quantity of assassins on the side of islam.

Can you show me over 100 christians that were killed by other christians in the name of their Lord, just this past week?
 
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awitch

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Can you show me over 100 christians that were killed by other christians in the name of their Lord, just this past week?

No, Christians have gotten much better at not killing each other over the last few centuries. I guess I should just let those Christians off the hook then.
 
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Montalban

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I love tu quoque! I bust it out every time someone points out a problem they claim is special to this or that religion.
.

Apparently one thing can't be measured on its own merits.

I take it that if you ever read about one war you could only do so by reading about every other?

For those disavowing religion there's a great love of illogic
 
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kiwimac

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This was not an honour killing (which also occur among tribes-people of other beliefs) and there is no allowance for this kind of behaviour in orthodox Islam. This was the action of a diseased mind not a religious requirement.
 
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Montalban

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Most Muslim apologists and also some gullible westerners want to argue that the ‘so called “honor killing” is not Islamic and it’s a tribal/cultural vice.’
Islam Watch - "“Honor Killing” is Absolutely Islamic" by Syed Kamran Mirza

This was not an honour killing (which also occur among tribes-people of other beliefs) and there is no allowance for this kind of behaviour in orthodox Islam. This was the action of a diseased mind not a religious requirement.

So-called 'honour killings' fit in with Islamic ideas on abrogation of responsibility
from the same site:
Dictums of Quran and Hadiths which may dictate/incite honor killing:

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Quran-24:2 “The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day.”

Quran-17:32 “ Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).

Quran-33:33 “stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display.”

Now some sahih hadiths:

Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira: A man from Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque and called (the Prophet ) saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." On that the Prophet turned his face from him to the other side, whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and repeated his statement. The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side again. The man moved again (and repeated his statement) for the fourth time. So when the man had given witness four times against himself, the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" He replied, "No." The Prophet then said (to his companions), "Go and stone him to death." The man was a married one. Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari said: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the Musalla ('Id praying place) in Medina. When the stones hit him with their sharp edges, he fled, but we caught him at Al-Harra and stoned him till he died.
(See also Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195.)


Sahi Bukhari: 8:6814:
Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah al-Ansari: “A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah’s Messenger [Muhammad] and informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse; and he bore witness four times against himself. Allah’s Messenger ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married person.”

Sahi Muslim No. 4206:
“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009; and Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65:
Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, "Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, ‘We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of a adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession."

Al-Bukhari:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Whoever guarantees me that he will guard his chastity, I will guarantee him Paradise”.

Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, An-Nisa’i and others:
Abu Hurayrah reports that the Messenger of Allah said, “No one commits adultery while still remaining a believer, for faith is more precious unto Allah than such an evil act!” In another version, it is stated, “When a person commits adultery he casts away from his neck the bond that ties him to Islam; if, however, he repents, Allah will accept his repentance”.

Al-Bayhaqi:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “O mankind! Beware of fornication/adultery for it entails six dire consequences: three of them relating to this world and three to the next world. As for the three that are related to this world, they are the following: it removes the glow of one’s face, brings poverty, and reduces the life-span. As for its dire consequences in the next world they are: it brings down the wrath of Allah upon the person, subjects him to terrible reckoning, and finally casts him in hell-fire.”
 
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Montalban

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