Sacrifice of Isaac
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Eudaimonist
I believe in life before death!
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Yes, if I were God I would have flunked Abraham for acting as he did.
It's deeply ironic that Abraham gave up on being a moral agent, and ended up mindlessly "following orders" that were clearly evil, given recent Jewish history.
That's harsh, I know, but true.
eudaimonia,
Mark
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Yusuf Evans
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I have a hard time understanding why God would ask someone to murder their own child, much less anyone else. I think Abraham would've been okay had he said no to God.
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I think he should have sought some psychiatric help.
I'm not sure how advanced our knowledge of mental illness was back then though.
I'm not sure how advanced our knowledge of mental illness was back then though.
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Lynden1000
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Assuming the bible's basic descriptions of God, Satan, and fallen angels are all accurate, Abraham should have dismissed such supernatural instructions as the work of Satan/demons rather than the command of a supposedly loving god.
One would expect the appropriate response to be "My God would never ask me to even contemplate such a thing, so I know that the voice I hear is that of an evil entity, not God."
It always surprises me that this Abraham character didn't seem even remotely surprised that the god he worshiped would ask such a thing. In fact he seems pretty convinced that it's the kind of thing his god *would* ask.
One would expect the appropriate response to be "My God would never ask me to even contemplate such a thing, so I know that the voice I hear is that of an evil entity, not God."
It always surprises me that this Abraham character didn't seem even remotely surprised that the god he worshiped would ask such a thing. In fact he seems pretty convinced that it's the kind of thing his god *would* ask.
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I have come to understand this story quite differently after practicing family law for about 15 years. Yes, I saw all kinds of ways love and family relationships can go crazy, but after a while I gained a little bit of insight on the kinds of complicated situations that can lead people there. Abraham's relationship with Isaac is a whole lot more complicated than it seems.
Abraham loved his firstborn son, Ishmael, but Sarah regretted the whole surrogacy thing with Hagar. Then Abraham turns the tables on her, and gives her to Abimelech. Sarah comes back from his house pregnant. (Read the chronology of the narrative, leaving out the Lot story in the middle. God says to Abraham, "This time next year Sarah your wife will have a son," and the next thing Abraham does is move to Abimelech's territory & give her to him, Abimelech returns her with a big display of innocence and reparations to establish his claim the child isn't his. Then Isaac is born.) Then Sarah tells Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away, and God says, basically, "You listened to Sarah in having this child, now listen to her again."
Then, God says to Abraham, "Take your son Isaac, your only son, whom you love..." Do you see the irony in that? Isaac was not Abraham's only son. Ishmael was Abraham's son whom he loved. And considering the circumstances of Isaac's conception, Abraham was probably ambivalent about whether Isaac was actually his son at all.
I think Abraham obeyed God because he didn't really love Isaac. Abraham resented Isaac. I think it took something as dramatic as this incident for Abraham to even begin to feel any love and compassion for Isaac.
So should Abraham, ethically, have refused? You may all be right that he should have. The fact that he didn't even argue with God about it proves he didn't really love Isaac. God had to show Abraham that God loved Isaac more than Abraham did.
Abraham loved his firstborn son, Ishmael, but Sarah regretted the whole surrogacy thing with Hagar. Then Abraham turns the tables on her, and gives her to Abimelech. Sarah comes back from his house pregnant. (Read the chronology of the narrative, leaving out the Lot story in the middle. God says to Abraham, "This time next year Sarah your wife will have a son," and the next thing Abraham does is move to Abimelech's territory & give her to him, Abimelech returns her with a big display of innocence and reparations to establish his claim the child isn't his. Then Isaac is born.) Then Sarah tells Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away, and God says, basically, "You listened to Sarah in having this child, now listen to her again."
Then, God says to Abraham, "Take your son Isaac, your only son, whom you love..." Do you see the irony in that? Isaac was not Abraham's only son. Ishmael was Abraham's son whom he loved. And considering the circumstances of Isaac's conception, Abraham was probably ambivalent about whether Isaac was actually his son at all.
I think Abraham obeyed God because he didn't really love Isaac. Abraham resented Isaac. I think it took something as dramatic as this incident for Abraham to even begin to feel any love and compassion for Isaac.
So should Abraham, ethically, have refused? You may all be right that he should have. The fact that he didn't even argue with God about it proves he didn't really love Isaac. God had to show Abraham that God loved Isaac more than Abraham did.
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Meshavrischika
for Thy greater honor and glory
no because God's will cannot be wrong or against His teaching (it doesn't work that way). It was impossible that God would not intervene because it would be contrary to His teachings and ideation so there was really no reason to refuse IMO.
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elsbeth
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I think Abraham made the right choice. He loved God more than Isaac, BUT he loved Isaac a lot, and he trusted that God would take care of Isaac and him (Abraham) whatever happened. SO he did what God told him to do.I was turned away from God for several years when I married my husband, and I didn't talk to him about being Christian. When I finally tuned back to God (8 years and 2 kids into the marriage) I thought -how am I going to tell my husband that I'm a "born again" Christian, and how important this is to me? He'll think I'm crazy- he'll leave me- he'll stay but it will come between us. It FELT like I was putting my marriage on the "altar" by being open with my husband. But I knew that God wanted me to, so I did. It turned out right- we're going on 23 years married now, and he and my kids are all Christian.My point being: did I make the right decision? It meant caring more about my relationship with God than with my husband (and I loved him dearly), but to keep quiet would have kept me separated from God, and I couldn't stand that. Abraham couldn't have, either.
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cantata
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What about poor, innocent Jephthah's daughter? Wasn't permitting her sacrifice a violation of precisely the same teachings and ideation?
IMO, God behaved absolutely disgustingly in letting Jephthah's daughter be sacrificed.
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Meshavrischika
for Thy greater honor and glory
the right translation of this passage is: "whatever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the people of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, or I will offer it up as a burnt offering"
i.e. she was dedicated to God, not burnt. (but you have to research word usage... interpretation of the bible from Hebrew to English seems to really distort meanings IMO)
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cantata
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Josephus appears to have thought she was actually sacrificed. So did various early Church Fathers.
I think it's disingenuous to say that yours is definitely the right translation. There is much scholarly disagreement about it.
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Meshavrischika
for Thy greater honor and glory
I think the same regarding "church fathers"... but that's another thread completely.
I know what I hold true, and you know the same
. (doesnt' mean they have to agree because in the long run doctrine doesn't matter when compared to Christ)
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cantata
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I think the same regarding "church fathers"... but that's another thread completely.
I know what I hold true, and you know the same
Indeed.
I would add, though, that the fact that there are many Christians who do believe that Jephthah sacrificed his daughter is troubling - how they can reconcile that with their God's loving nature, I don't know.
Even if he only dedicated her to virginity, surely that should have been her decision... and she obviously wasn't very happy about it!
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Meshavrischika
for Thy greater honor and glory
eh. probably a tradition thing. while we hold liberty such as choosing our own path as self evident that was not the case back then, and while Christ was a femanist (at least IMO) most Jewish men were basically the "owners" of their daughters.Indeed.
I would add, though, that the fact that there are many Christians who do believe that Jephthah sacrificed his daughter is troubling - how they can reconcile that with their God's loving nature, I don't know.
Even if he only dedicated her to virginity, surely that should have been her decision... and she obviously wasn't very happy about it!
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Well, as far as I remember, God never requested Jepthah to do it. It was Jepthah who made a unilateral pledge, contrary to Abraham from whom God directly requested the sacrifice of Isaac. As the OT depicts the situations, they are not equivalent.
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Meshavrischika
for Thy greater honor and glory
The spirit of God came upon Jephthah... It could be interpreted as "God's spirit moved him to do it"... but then I don't think God moved him to sacrifice her anyway.
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Sacrifice of anything to an omnipotent being always seems superfluous. Why does God need anything? Or to put it in pop culture context. "Why does God need a spaceship?"
It's a test to prove how much people love him? God in the bible does that a lot. He allows Jobs entire family to be killed just to prove how much people love Him. In any human that would be considered psychopathic.
Sacrifice is a hang over from primitive religions and sympathetic magic.
It's a test to prove how much people love him? God in the bible does that a lot. He allows Jobs entire family to be killed just to prove how much people love Him. In any human that would be considered psychopathic.
Sacrifice is a hang over from primitive religions and sympathetic magic.
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