Sacrifice not the only method of atonement

Fireinfolding · Apr 26, 2007

simonjandrews said:
where does Abraham come into this, there is nowhere where it speaks of Jesus in Torah literally or allergorically.

Abraham comes in regards to the sacrifice wherein David might not show it in that way but Abraham does through Isaac. Hes in the many pictures as the Apostles show.

Also why are you guys so fixated with a lamb, a lamb is an animal and Jesus was a man, these two things are not the same thing they will never be the same thing they do not represent anything other than what they are in the physical.

Gen 22:7 God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering

These are types as Peter shows concerning redemption through his blood.

1Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Isaiah 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Lev 14:13 And he shall slay the lamb ~in the place~ where he shall kill the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the holy place: for as the sin offering is the priest's, so is the trespass offering: it is most holy:

Lev 14: 2 And the priest shall take one he lamb, and offer him for a trespass offering, and the log of oil, and wave them for a wave offering before the LORD:

Theres a lots of Lamb verses

Is this like a form of mysticism which you guys practice????

Whats mysticism? How do scriptures showing Jesus Christ mean one practices mysticism whatever that is?

Its all about Him

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, ~not~ a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (inthe volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear ~the words~ of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures...are they which testify of me.

Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Peace

Fireinfolding

catwoman2 · Apr 27, 2007

simonjandrews said:
ISAIAH 53 THIS IS A VERY POOR TRANSATION. ISAIAH 53 IS THE PASSAGE WHICH EVERYONE PICKES OUT BUT IF YOU LOOK AT IT CLEARLY YOU WILL SEE THAT IT IS TALKING ABOUT ISREAL IN THE SINGULAR, YOU JUST GOT TO READ AROUND IT A BIT.

After looking at numerous translations and study Bibles and not getting what was helping me, I found the NLT Open Bible which is basic enough for me and builds a good foundation for my Christian belief.

Tamara224 · Apr 27, 2007

Fireinfolding said:
Whats mysticism? How do scriptures showing Jesus Christ mean one practices mysticism whatever that is?

"Mysticism" has a few definitions and connotations... but as it concerns Christianity, this definition is applicalbe, imo:

"A belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience."

The word gets misapplied a lot, and has been shunned by Christians because of it's use in other religions. It has occultic connotations. However, the basic definition of the word fits with Christianity.

Fireinfolding · Apr 27, 2007

Tamara224 said:
"Mysticism" has a few definitions and connotations... but as it concerns Christianity, this definition is applicalbe, imo:

"A belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience."
The word gets misapplied a lot, and has been shunned by Christians because of it's use in other religions. It has occultic connotations. However, the basic definition of the word fits with Christianity.

Well gees, I believe in that then

Yeah alot of people call what is good evil, that was a big problem and it was often taught them to by others with evil suspicions of thier own defiled minds. Speaking against what by "nature" one cannot understand (and spiritual things are NOT by the natural man) is quite typical of that "one mind".

I have noticed if you say something is "hidden, concealed, speak of a mystery, secret" (all words in scripture) your labeled all kinds of things.

If nothing was hidden there would not be a million topics of discussion beating ones head against what they profess to be so clear Comical really.

Yeah I believe in the ~knowable~ mysteries of God by the blessed Spirit of God who teaches all.

If I confessed to the contrary it would be as Him saying to me, "be it unto me as I have believed"

I believe FOR GREATER!! The Knowledge of God through the manifested PRESENCE of THE LORD who cometh to give us UNDERSTANDING and OBTAIN eternal life to KNOW the unknowable save BY HIM.

The Fathers LOVE shining out of the darkness of my own heart to be reflective of HIS PRECIOUS LIGHT

God ROCKS Sis!!

Peace

Fireinfolding

Tamara224 · Apr 27, 2007

Fireinfolding said:
Well gees, I believe in that then

Yeah alot of people call what is good evil, that was a big problem and it was often taught them to by others with evil suspicions of thier own defiled minds. Speaking against what by "nature" one cannot understand (and spiritual things are NOT by the natural man) is quite typical of that "one mind".

I have noticed if you say something is "hidden, concealed, speak of a mystery, secret" (all words in scripture) your labeled all kinds of things.

If nothing was hidden there would not be a million topics of discussion beating ones head against what they profess to be so clear Comical really.

Yeah I believe in the ~knowable~ mysteries of God by the blessed Spirit of God who teaches all.

If I confessed to the contrary it would be as Him saying to me, "be it unto me as I have believed"

I believe FOR GREATER!! The Knowledge of God through the manifested PRESENCE of THE LORD who cometh to give us UNDERSTANDING and OBTAIN eternal life to KNOW the unknowable save BY HIM.

The Fathers LOVE shining out of the darkness of my own heart to be reflective of HIS PRECIOUS LIGHT

God ROCKS Sis!!

Peace

Fireinfolding

simonjandrews · Apr 27, 2007

Tamara224 said:
Blood was required under the Law (the Old Covenant). Jesus' blood was therefore required to fulfill the Law.

All you are doing is taking Scriptures out of context and misapplying them. For what purpose, I am unsure. Why do you wish to deny the sacrifice of Christ? It is so clear and obvious. No one but you is misunderstanding the NT here.

What you are missing, imo, in all of your analysis is the fact that Jesus' sacrifice is applied to all sins, past, present and future. Scripture says He was "slain from the foundation of the world." So, any forgiveness granted in the OT was granted under the blood of Jesus. God forbore with the sins of people prior to Christ's sacrifice. God looks at a person's heart to determine whether there is true repentence, then He applies (sprinkles) the blood which sanctifies (cleanses). Although the people in the OT never lived to see the fulfillment of the promises (of which the OT sacrifices were a forshadowing) they still reap the reward because of their faith. They still, like all of us, gain entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven through Jesus Christ, made possible by Christ's sacrifice.

There wasn't a different way to get forgiven in the OT than there is now. All of the verses you cite which suggest that atonement is found another way only reiterate the truth that God looks to the heart and not to the outward show. A person could offer animal sacrifices till there was a lake of blood and it wouldn't do any good if their heart was not right. The faithfull in OT times relied on the sacrifices for a temporary "covering" of their sins and waited, not know for what, but faithful and seeking God, seeking after righteousness. The Law showed them that righteousness was not possible. Jesus therefore fulfilled the Law, his sacrifice made it possible for our sins to be washed away, not just covered, and so we can now boldly approach the throne of grace, enter the Holy of Holies. Something David, though a man after God's own heart, never did while he was living.

I leave you with some more plain language from Romans:

Romans 3:21-26
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation (sacrifice of atonement) in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Your whole theology is based on the fact that there needed to be blood shed for forgiveness and this is just not the case.the shedding of blood is the least of all methods of atonement.Repentance is the main method of atonement.
what has Isreal and the sacrificial system that they were caught up in to do with a man who claimed to be the messiah, there is no literal connection, only the one you create and link to things in the torah.
Even the translation you use is corrupted, there are lots of alterations in the old testament of the KJV as opposed to a hebrew torah.
You rely on the fact that what you can read in english is what is written in hebrew but the simple fact is that it is not.

Tamara224 · Apr 27, 2007

simonjandrews said:
Your whole theology is based on the fact that there needed to be blood shed for forgiveness and this is just not the case.the shedding of blood is the least of all methods of atonement.Repentance is the main method of atonement.

You didn't even read what I wrote, did you?

what has Isreal and the sacrificial system that they were caught up in to do with a man who claimed to be the messiah, there is no literal connection, only the one you create and link to things in the torah.

So, is it your contention then, that Jesus was not the Messiah? Do you completely discount the entirety of the New Testament?

Even the translation you use is corrupted, there are lots of alterations in the old testament of the KJV as opposed to a hebrew torah.

I don't use the KJV, I haven't once quoted the KJV in this thread. Obviously, then, you haven't actually read what I wrote and know not of what you speak (er, write).

You rely on the fact that what you can read in english is what is written in hebrew but the simple fact is that it is not.

So, is it your contention then that only those who can read Hebrew can understand the Torah? Are you aware that at the time of Christ, the Torah had been translated into the common tongue (that is, Greek)? Do you then discount the testimony of the apostles and disciples who proclaimed that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of prophecy?

What is you purpose here? Methinks you are not being honest...but are seeking to stir strife and doubt.

Lisa0315 · Apr 27, 2007

Tamara224 said:
You didn't even read what I wrote, did you?

So, is it your contention then, that Jesus was not the Messiah? Do you completely discount the entirety of the New Testament?

I don't use the KJV, I haven't once quoted the KJV in this thread. Obviously, then, you haven't actually read what I wrote and know not of what you speak (er, write).

So, is it your contention then that only those who can read Hebrew can understand the Torah? Are you aware that at the time of Christ, the Torah had been translated into the common tongue (that is, Greek)? Do you then discount the testimony of the apostles and disciples who proclaimed that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of prophecy?

What is you purpose here? Methinks you are not being honest...but are seeking to stir strife and doubt.

For some reason, I am beginning to think of Oysters and Pork...Perhaps it is time for you to kick off the dust on your sandals, Sister.

Lisa

J4Jesus · Apr 28, 2007

Jesus Christ fulfilled every prophecy in the Old Testament that foretold of the Savoiur who was to come which proves He IS the Messiah

BigChrisfilm · Apr 28, 2007

simonjandrews said:
Most christians Iknow believe that there had to be the shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sins I.e animal sacrifice and then Christ on the cross.However this is not true in every sence.
Most animal sacrifices in Torah were either a praise offering or a sacrifice was made for unintentional Sin.

There were a great number of Jews who were caught up in the sacrificial system! This is why King David said in Psalm 40 v 6 in a christian and v 7 In the Jewish bible

" Sacrifices you did not desire, Burnt offerings you have not required"

This was changed in the Greek Testament in Heb ch 10v11( either by somebody who was trying to mislead people or who did not understand Hebrew)

Heb 10:5 Wherefore1352 when he cometh1525 into1519 the3588 world,2889 he saith,3004 Sacrifice2378 and2532 offering4376 thou wouldest2309 not,3756 but1161 a body4983 hast thou prepared2675 me:3427
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings3646 and2532 sacrifices for4012 sin266 thou hast had no pleasure.2106, 3756

A Body!!! where does it say that in the Torah! in fact human sacrifice is forbidden. How you Play with the Bible!

InTorah there is 3 methods of obtianing forgiveness the main ne being repentance.

This is why David said (2 Sam 12v13) "I have sinned before Hashem"

Nathan then says "HaShem hath forgiven you already.You shall not die" but his child to Uriah was striken and died.

There is no shedding of Blood! there is no mention of Jesus. Why is this? because the animal sacrifice is for unintentional sin.... this is where christians have got caught up in a distorted sacrificial system.

Psalm 51 says " Rescue me from the Blood Guilt"

"You desire no offering or I would offer it."

There Does not need to be a sacrifice! Hosea 3v4-5
Jews will be many days without a King or a sacrifice and Priesthood until the end of dayswill occur until they return unto HaShem!

Well, if you are saying that Christ didn't have to die to save us from our sins, than I would have to say you are wrong.

BigChrisfilm · Apr 28, 2007

simonjandrews said:
I suppose I am Lisa 0315(no offence intended), If there is not only forgiveness through the shedding of blood then why the death of Christ?

Matthew 12:36
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

You had better KNOW this is true my friend. I don't think you realize how serious a situation you are in. You can't go around saying anything and everything you think might be true. If you truely believe this, ok, but don't just say anything that comes to mind, for "EVERY idle word that men shall speak, they shall give accound thereof in the day of judgement."

simonjandrews · Apr 28, 2007

catwoman2 said:
After looking at numerous translations and study Bibles and not getting what was helping me, I found the NLT Open Bible which is basic enough for me and builds a good foundation for my Christian belief.

these christian bibles are poor translations of a habrew torah, there is no use using a christian bible to prove J-sus is in the old testament when they are not true to what was originally written in the hebrew. I can go through some of there if you wish but this will become a very lengthy topic....... its up to you.

simonjandrews · Apr 29, 2007

Lisa0315 said:
For some reason, I am beginning to think of Oysters and Pork...Perhaps it is time for you to kick off the dust on your sandals, Sister.

Lisa

If the Torah had been translated into greek then all the more reason that there should not be miss quotes in the new tesament??? they were trying to introduce a new theology for pagans to adopt, this is why there is the facination with the blood. this is not a jewish concept, blood is the least of atonment methods.The New Tesament is corrupt and false that is the reason Jews do not accept it, not because we are so stiff necked but because Hashem has specificlly told us not to follow the Idols of other Nations

simonjandrews · Apr 29, 2007

BigChrisfilm said:
Matthew 12:36
36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

You had better KNOW this is true my friend. I don't think you realize how serious a situation you are in. You can't go around saying anything and everything you think might be true. If you truely believe this, ok, but don't just say anything that comes to mind, for "EVERY idle word that men shall speak, they shall give accound thereof in the day of judgement."

rest assured I know it is the truth.HaShem has made it plain in torah how he is to be mentioned throughout all generations. It was not as J-sus.

djconklin · Apr 29, 2007

these christian bibles are poor translations of a habrew torah

1) I believe that the words "these," "christian," and "bibles" should have had the first letter capitalized.
2) I believe it is "Hebrew."
3) It assumes facts not in evidence. In fact, when the Dead Sea Scrolls were found it turns out that something like 99.99% of what we have is what was original. There's very few places where translators missed the mark and some have been corrected in subsequent translations (older one's had fewer mss to work with and less knowledge about the culture and times).

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 29, 2007

simonjandrews said:
If the Torah had been translated into greek then all the more reason that there should not be miss quotes in the new tesament??? they were trying to introduce a new theology for pagans to adopt, this is why there is the facination with the blood. this is not a jewish concept, blood is the least of atonment methods.The New Tesament is corrupt and false that is the reason Jews do not accept it, not because we are so stiff necked but because Hashem has specificlly told us not to follow the Idols of other Nations

And so why should we care what the "Jews" think about Jesus and Blood Atonement?

Btw, the Muslims think the same way as the Jews concerning that

http://www.christianforums.com/t4629874-what-about-the-court-in-revelation-112.html

Reve 5:6 And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been SLAUGHTERED [#4969], having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the land.

4969 sphazo {sfad'-zo} a primary verb; TDNT - 7:925,1125; v
AV - slay 8, kill 1, wound 1; 10
1) to slay, slaughter, butcher 2) to put to death by violence 3) mortally wounded

http://www.christianforums.com/t5220234-christ-the-messiah.html

We Muslims do not subscribe to Paul's theories because they are contrary to logic and common sense that the good God Almighty has bestowed on us.

Nadiine · Apr 29, 2007

I wonder if anyone is forgetting one KEY element in all the personal study here.....

JESUS CHRIST HAD TO SHED HIS BLOOD AS A SACRIFICE FOR OUR SIN.
In fact, Jesus prayed in the garden, telling the Father, (essentially) If there be any other way.... let this cup pass from Me...
IF there were any other way to atone for sin, don't you think Christ would have used it when He was struggling with His fate that nite when He was arrested by Roman gaurds?

You can try to study the bible all you want, but JESUS' own example is your proof that BLOOD IS MANDATORY TO REMOVE SIN.

Hebrews (10)? tells us that prior to Christ's death, the sacrificing merely allowed God to "pass over" the sin, it wasn't removed.
[His] Blood fully atones; removing the sin from us.

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 29, 2007

Originally Posted by simonjandrews

If the Torah had been translated into greek then all the more reason that there should not be miss quotes in the new tesament??? they were trying to introduce a new theology for pagans to adopt, this is why there is the facination with the blood. this is not a jewish concept, blood is the least of atonment methods.The New Tesament is corrupt and false that is the reason Jews do not accept it, not because we are so stiff necked but because Hashem has specificlly told us not to follow the Idols of other Nations

And so why should we care what the "Jews" think about Jesus and Blood Atonement?

Nadiine said:
Anyone forget Jesus??

I wonder if anyone is forgetting one KEY element in all the personal study here.....

JESUS CHRIST HAD TO SHED HIS BLOOD AS A SACRIFICE FOR OUR SIN.........

..........Hebrews (10)? tells us that prior to Christ's death, the sacrificing merely allowed God to "pass over" the sin, it wasn't removed.
[His] Blood fully atones; removing the sin from us.

http://www.christianforums.com/t4629874-what-about-the-court-in-revelation-112.html

Hosea 13:14 From the hand of Sheol I do ransom Them[Israel/Jews], From Death I redeem Them [Israel/Jews], Where [is] thy plague, O death? Where thy destruction, O Sheol? Repentance is hid from Mine eyes.

Hebrews 7:12 For the Priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of law.

Reve 5:9 and They [Israel/Jews] sing a new song, saying, `Worthy art Thou to take the scroll, and to open the seals of it, because Thou wast SLAUGHTERED, and didst Redeem Us [Israel/Jews] to God in Thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 29, 2007

simonjandrews said:
rest assured I know it is the truth.HaShem has made it plain in torah how he is to be mentioned throughout all generations. It was not as J-sus.

Ok. So how do we say the name of "JESUS" in Hebrew?

Btw, are you Messianic as I notice you seem to hyphenate the name of YHWH and Yashua like the Jews do. Interesting.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Revelation 1:1 [a/an] From/Un-Covering/Veiling[ apo-kaluyiV] Yeshuwa` Mashiyach, which gives to Him, the God/YAHWEH, to show to the bondservants of Him, which is behooving to be becoming in swiftness.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/
Ancient Hebrew

simonjandrews · Apr 29, 2007

J4Jesus said:
Jesus Christ fulfilled every prophecy in the Old Testament that foretold of the Savoiur who was to come which proves He IS the Messiah

why what did he fulfill?

Sacrifice not the only method of atonement

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