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Sacred Scriptures

ViaCrucis

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According to the PraiseMoves website (and some similarly hysterical and/or gullible believers-milking websites), yes there is:

"It seems the enemy has a counterfeit for almost everything the Lord offers. (NOTE: When I use the phrase “the enemy” I am not referring to a person or group of people. Rather, “the enemy” refers to satan, the devil, the enemy of your soul. We love people. We hate sin and the author of it; the one Jesus calls “the thief” in John 10:10 and “a murderer” and “the father of lies” in John 8:44.)

[...]

Yoga’s breathing techniques (pranayama) may seem stress-relieving, yet they can be an open door to the psychic realm – inhaling and exhaling certain “energies” for the purpose of relaxation and cleansing."

It never ceases to both amuse and amaze me how certain sectors of the Christian world are so willing to attribute so much to Satan and his alleged power and influence.

I prefer Luther's description, where the devil is spoken of as an angry, chained dog. Sure the dog is vicious, but it's captive and in chains. According to the Christian metanarrative the devil is conquered and in chains--it's a fundamental part of our celebration of Easter, that Christ is risen from the dead having defeated the power of sin, death and the devil. The great Icons of the Anastasis point specifically to this important part of the Christian faith:

The image is too large to post without ruining everyone's reading enjoyment, so I'll post a link here. The figure bound and crushed beneath the broken down gates of Hell is death and/or Satan.

In the Lutheran Solid Declaration of the Formula of Concord we confess: "we believe simply that the entire person, God and human being, descended to Hell after his burial, conquered the devil, destroyed the power of Hell, and took from the devil all his power."

The Harrowing of Hell is a fundamental aspect of the Christian redemptive narrative, wherein we confess the devil fallen, beaten and trampled by Christ who rescues man from the clutches of the evil one. So I consider it strange why, apparently, the devil is treated with such great esteem where apparently he has magic powers where by simply breathing a certain way that he can use his voodoo on us.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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Thank you for that, CryptoLutheran!

I noticed before how vast portions of contemporary Christianity seem to focus almost exclusively on the Crucifixion (and a legalistic interpretation of the same), but I never quite pondered the enormous significance of the "underworld journey" and what it entails. Thus, the resurrection always felt like a curious footnote, tacked on to the narrative - best exemplified by Mel Gibson's religious snuff porn "The Passion of the Christ": it's all about the violence, the bloodshed, the suffering - accordingly, the fact that Jesus steps out of the tomb at the end seems oddly superfluous in relation to the rest of the film.

Naturally, I was at least nominally familiar with the concept of the underworld journey, seeing how it's expressed in the Creeds: but before I read your post here, it never really drew my attention.
But with this in mind, I realize for the first time just how powerful that archetypal narrative actually is.
 
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C

crimsonleaf

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I know exactly what you mean! The Book of Mormon has never struck me as anything other than fraudulent, and not just because of its usage of mangled King James English, its frequent anachronisms or its ridiculous historical claims.

Now, I think it's possible that people derive spiritual "nourishment" even from sources such as this, but more because of what's in themselves than because of some quality inherent to the text as such. Readers who engage with a text do so in an active manner, and what they derive from it quite often has its source in their own psyche.

Hi Jane

This answer may have already appeared, in which case I apologise for being lazy and not reading everything, but there's a lot in your nourishment theory.

I'm 56 and only really came to the Bible a couple of years ago. I'd tried before a long period of atheism but with little success. Since my car journey conversion I have seen the Bible in a new light. Whether you accept it personally or not, Christians believe that they have an indwelling of the Holy Spirit and I liken this almost to a "translator" in some respects. I read things with a God-given faith now, which gives a clarity which I'd previously sought but not found.

To me the Bible holds many truths, about human behaviour, faith, God's part in our lives and our interaction over the centuries. It's coherance bearing in mind the time span of the writings is extrordinary. Every nuance of human behaviour is documented.

Granted, it could be possible to create a book now which might contain all the human behaviour, but there's no doubt that Christians perceive the Bible through Spirit-coloured specs, which is what allows us to claim that it's God-breathed. I don't think an unbeliever could ever read it nad gain as much as we might.

And yes, the Book of Morman not only uses KJV English, but lifts great chunks of text from the KJV.
 
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smaneck

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:blush: How embarrassing. Well, I don't feel that way about yoga. The true meaning of yoga, I gather from the Gita, is a method of acheiving union with God. The Gita explains the various methods, such as karma yoga, bhakti yoga, etc. Another great Scripture or collection of Scriptures are the Upanishads, which deals with the experience of union with God. Also, a great expositor of Vedanta--ie. the core of Hinduism--is Shankara.

This probably belongs in a different thread but it raises the interesting issue of the relationship between mysticism and the monotheistic religions. For the Abrahamic religions the notion of unity with God is rather problematic because God is seen to be transcendent over creation. Traditionally these traditions have been willing to accept mysticism inso far as it involves unity with God's will rather than His essence (as in Hinduism.) Of course, Hinduism is not just one thing and it has lots of different conceptions of the Deity. Likewise the term 'yoga' can mean lots of different things. You mention the three that are talked about by Krishna in the Gita. The term itself is Indo-European and literally means 'yoke' as in 'my yoke is easy.' In other words it can refer to any type of discipline. The type of yoga we usually associate with exercise is called Hatha Yoga. It is intended to purify the body, making it ready for higher levels of meditation. In the west it has been more or less divorced from its spiritual background. It looks like what what Praise Moves is trying to do is baptize these exercises and marry them to an entirely different religious tradition.
 
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smaneck

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I prefer Luther's description, where the devil is spoken of as an angry, chained dog.

The Luther scholar with whom I studied church history told me that Luther probably was about as dualistic as you could be in regards to his belief abot the power of the devil and still be orthodox. But he didn't see Satan in the medieval terms of 'the devil made me do it.' The devil for him was what got inside your head and said things like: "How do you know that you are really saved?"
 
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Drunk On Love

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For the Abrahamic religions the notion of unity with Godis rather problematic
Good point. Unity WITH implies partners with God. It's a dualistic statement and God is the One without partner. The One without a second. It would be a violation of ontological Tawhid. In truth only God is the Real. But that is about as "mystical" a doctrine as one could find and it's perfectly inline with the Qur'an.

As al -Ghazali wrote:
"There is nothing in wujud [existence] except God...Wujud [Existence] only belongs to the Real One"
 
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smaneck

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I noticed before how vast portions of contemporary Christianity seem to focus almost exclusively on the Crucifixion (and a legalistic interpretation of the same),

I find these legalistic interpretations of something which could be much more spiritually profound a big turn-off myself. I think the real problem here is how we understand the issue of atonement and sacrifice in general. The legalistic position holds that the crucifixion was necessary in order to God to forgive sins. Most Christian conceptions of atonement, even when they don't realize it. are based on a formulation made by a Christian theologian named Anselm who lived a thousand years ago. He had a neo-platonic conception of a
God as possessing both perfect justice and mercy which must be
satisfied. Because of His perfect justice He cannot forgive sins
without satisfaction. And because He is merciful the means had to
provided for making that satisfaction. Living in the hierarchical
world of early medieval Europe, Anselm felt the gravity of a sin or
crime was measured by the station of the one against whom the crime or
sin had been forgiven.God being exalted above all stations, it stood
to reason that a sin against Him was of infinite gravity with eternal
repercussions. It therefore incurred a debt which man could not hope
to satisfy. The only way in which the satisfaction could be made, and
men could be set free from sin, was for God Himself to make the
satisfaction as a man. This formula seems to have more to do with
'fire insurance' than a relationship, except if one is seeing
'relationship' in cold, legalistic terms. It seems to me this is
necessarily so, because when God's attributes are seen these kinds of
static categories of justice and mercy we are trying to look at God in
Greek terms of essence rather than Hebrew sense of conception of God
as a Living God, a Person. And we can only have a relationship with
the latter, not the former.

For a Baha'i the Person of God is the Manifestation for God is unknowable in His Essence. Having said that, there are passages in our own Writings that appear to accept the notion of atonement and sacrifices for sin. For instance, in regards to the sacrifice of Abraham, Baha'u'llah wrote:

"That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be [bless and do not curse] demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Husayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muhammad, the Apostle of God.

No man can ever claim to have comprehended the nature of the hidden and manifold grace of God; none can fathom His all-embracing mercy. Such hath been the perversity of men and their transgressions, so grievous have been the trials that have afflicted the Prophets of God and their chosen ones, that all mankind deserveth to be tormented and to perish. God's hidden and most loving providence, however, hath, through both visible and invisible agencies, protected and will continue to protect it from the penalty of its wickedness. Ponder this in thine heart, that the truth may be revealed unto thee, and be thou steadfast in His path."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 75)

Here is another one.

"Fix your gaze upon Him Who is the Temple of God amongst men. He, in
truth, hath offered up His life as a ransom for the redemption of the
world. He, verily, is the All-Bountiful, the Gracious, the Most
High.If any differences arise amongst you, behold Me standing before
your face, and overlook the faults
of one another for My name's sake and as a token of your love for My
manifest and resplendent Cause." Gleanings, 314.

While the Baha'i Writings do speak of ransom but they also speak of repentance as being the sole prerequisite of forgiveness. We even have references to the kind of 'death-bed' conversions that some people make fun of Christianity for:

"He should forgive the sinful, and never despise his low estate, for
none knoweth what his own end shall be. How often hath a sinner, at
the hour of death, attained to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the
immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the celestial Concourse.
And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire." KI 194-95

He likewise says; "Should anyone be afflicted by a sin, it behoveth
him to repent thereof and return unto his Lord. He, verily, granteth
forgiveness unto whomsoever He willeth, and none may question that
which it pleaseth Him to ordain."

Repentance doesn't mean simply feeling sorry for one sins, it means
turning towards God. One story that is told about Muslim mystic Rabi'a
is that one day she came upon Hasan al-Basra (an earlier Muslim
mystic) who was weeping and wailing over his sins, saying what a
wretched man he was. Rabi'a said, "Yes, you are. Because had you truly
turned towards God you would be looking at Him and not noticing your
own sins."

If repentance is the only prerequisite for forgiveness why these sacrifices and ransoms? Perhaps it is because only these kinds of sacrifices which make true repentance, true focusing on God out of love possible. This is what another medieval Christian theologian, Peter of Abelard argued. He held that the Crucifixion was necessary to forgive men's sin not because it was required on God's part but because only such a dramatic expression of God's love would enable people to repent and cause them to turn towards Him.

It strikes me that this form of atonement, unlike Anselm's formulation
*is*nrelational. But it is also something which could not be done once
and never again as in Christianity. If it is indeed grounded in God's
determination to reach us, instead of satisfying some abstract
requirements of the Divine Essence, then it would happen again and
again.

I think there is a great danger in seeing God as static, understandable by human categories like justice and mercy as Anselm liked to do. The God of the
Hebrew Bible was a Living God, a Person and like all persons (and
unlike pure essences) He had a Will, one like all wills was subject to
change on occasion. It seems to me this attempt to make God fit our mental conceptions, to put Him into a predictable box is in the end, a form of idolatry. The Living God is not so predictable. He fulfills prophecies in ways we don't expect, and at times appears to fulfill them not at all.
 
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Daniel25

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Thank you for that, CryptoLutheran!

I noticed before how vast portions of contemporary Christianity seem to focus almost exclusively on the Crucifixion (and a legalistic interpretation of the same), but I never quite pondered the enormous significance of the "underworld journey" and what it entails. Thus, the resurrection always felt like a curious footnote, tacked on to the narrative - best exemplified by Mel Gibson's religious snuff porn "The Passion of the Christ": it's all about the violence, the bloodshed, the suffering - accordingly, the fact that Jesus steps out of the tomb at the end seems oddly superfluous in relation to the rest of the film.

Naturally, I was at least nominally familiar with the concept of the underworld journey, seeing how it's expressed in the Creeds: but before I read your post here, it never really drew my attention.
But with this in mind, I realize for the first time just how powerful that archetypal narrative actually is.

the internet is such a obtuse echo chamber. If you go to see a passion play, expect to see a passion play.
 
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razeontherock

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There may be wisdom in the book but I doubt it was actually authored by Enoch. It would have to be much older than scholars credit it with being if that were the case.

You do realize that whatever text "scholars" may decide to critique, has 0 bearing on it's origin, right?
 
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razeontherock

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I have. It's a great book. I realize that it is quoted in the New Testament as well. I just doubt that it was actually authored by Enoch. He was said to have lived before the flood and to have been Adams great grandson after all! How was this book preserved? Did Noah take it on his ark with him?

No, Enoch was the seventh from Adam. (Which actually includes Adam as 1) Noah was Enoch's great grandson. And yes, tradition has it that Shem emerged from the ark with the book of Enoch. Also, the clothes that G-d made for Adam upon his expulsion, which is actually key to His Covenant being able to move forward at that time! Understanding these things has EVERY bearing on Christ in us, today ...
 
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razeontherock

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Even Voltaire has a prayer chapel.

Washington was a lot more private about his religious beliefs than say, John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. We know he was a Freemason, but he wasn't as heavily influenced by the Enlightenment as Jefferson or Franklin. We also know that he attended the Episcopal Church but would leave before the sacraments were administered. Washington would oftentimes refer to God as "Providence", "the Governor of the Universe" or "Great Ruler of Events" but he never used the name Jesus Christ in his public or private writings. I guess like all good soldiers he believed in Fate.

The existence of a prayer chapel or the usage of common terms of the period say nothing to his convictions. Those absolutely rule out Deism, and 100% line up with the Bible that he and Ben Franklin used word for word in law whenever possible, along with the vast majority of the FF's. What these great thinkers objected to was the evils of organized religion.
 
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razeontherock

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Most scholars regard Timothy and Titus as having been composed in the early second century. That's where we see clear signs of a patriarchal church organization. But even in Corinthians, a text which is indisputably Pauline, Paul recites what seems to be a litany of who supposedly saw the resurrected Christ. He states, first the twelve, then the five hundred and finally himself.

Whatever happened to the women at the tomb? Apparently they don't count!

Thank God for Luke or we would never know that Jesus wasn't like that.

So you're saying that Biblical era society did not reflect G-d's purposes in mankind being male and female. We agree!
 
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razeontherock

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:blush: How embarrassing. Well, I don't feel that way about yoga. The true meaning of yoga, I gather from the Gita, is a method of acheiving union with God. The Gita explains the various methods, such as karma yoga, bhakti yoga, etc. Another great Scripture or collection of Scriptures are the Upanishads, which deals with the experience of union with God. Also, a great expositor of Vedanta--ie. the core of Hinduism--is Shankara.

Sir, you are completely out of line with the teachings of your Church. Repent! (Only kidding of course. RC is quite wet behind the ears on this)
 
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razeontherock

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Enoch is second temple period literature, most likely around 300 years before Christ.

It was an influential book for both Judaism and early Christianity, and its influence can be seen in the New Testament and is indeed quoted in St. Jude's epistle.

However it's still second temple literature. It wasn't authored by the biblical Enoch.

-CryptoLutheran

If this is it's origin why did Jesus quote it so often and use it's principles in His teaching?
 
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razeontherock

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Naturally, I was at least nominally familiar with the concept of the underworld journey, seeing how it's expressed in the Creeds: but before I read your post here, it never really drew my attention.
But with this in mind, I realize for the first time just how powerful that archetypal narrative actually is.

I would suggest that you have just received your first glimpse, and there is MUCH more in store! This is where we truly "meet Christ," or at least get closest. This is inseparable from every time I mention "the Incarnation," which has come up a lot already, and no doubt will continue to.
 
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razeontherock

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For the Abrahamic religions the notion of unity with God is rather problematic because God is seen to be transcendent over creation. Traditionally these traditions have been willing to accept mysticism inso far as it involves unity with God's will rather than His essence

This suggests to me that you have never (truly) heard the Gospel. Yes in this sense it is unique from both Islam and Judaism, although the High Priest's functions in the Most Holy Place foreshadow this aspect ...
 
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smaneck

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The existence of a prayer chapel or the usage of common terms of the period say nothing to his convictions. Those absolutely rule out Deism, and 100% line up with the Bible that he and Ben Franklin used word for word in law whenever possible, along with the vast majority of the FF's. What these great thinkers objected to was the evils of organized religion.

If neither their deeds or their word say nothing about their convictions I'm not sure what does. Benjamin Franklin stated he was a deist in his own memoirs, though he nonetheless considered himself a Christian in some sense. His statements of beliefs, however, say nothing about the usual themes regarding salvation, the divinity of Christ, etc.
 
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smaneck

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So you're saying that Biblical era society did not reflect G-d's purposes in mankind being male and female. We agree!

I'm saying the Bible itself does not reflect a belief in the equality of men and women. What we see of Jesus, at least in Luke's Gospel seems to be exceptional in this regard. Mind you, I don't blame the Bible for this. As I mentioned in another post, there were some basic biological and economic reasons why social equality were not possible back then. What bugs me is when Christians criticize the Qur'an for having had to operate under the same circumstances.
 
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smaneck

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If this is it's origin why did Jesus quote it so often and use it's principles in His teaching?

Jude quotes the Book of Enoch, not Jesus.

Pseudepigrapha has never prevented texts from being regarded as scripture.
 
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