Sacred Scriptures

[smaneck]

There is extremism on both fronts.

The Turkish government is hardly extremist.

Our?

I'm an America.

Yeah, with the majority and prevailing mindset based on lutheran, methodists, protestants, and presbyterians. And a few free masons.

The prevailing mindset of our founding fathers was that of the Enlightment, a decidedly anti-Christian ideology. Granted, most of them didn't go that far. Jefferson, for instance, read the Bible but he scratched out all the references to miracles. I'm not sure much was left of the Gospels. Yeah, a lot of them like George Washington were Freemasons. They too, were Deists.

 

[smaneck]

Umm... what's that question supposed to mean?

Apparently he is suggesting I'm not a real American.

 

[smaneck]

You proved my point that the hijab is not necessary making the lawsuits frivolous and an abuse of the system!

Apparently you missed the point. Just because some Muslims don't think they need to follow the hadith doesn't mean all of them believe this. It is like saying the Amish shouldn't demand their civil rights because not all Christians think they have to live the way they do.

Accordingly, issuing a million fatwas is what's needed to keep suicide bombers and hamas in check.

No, you need Navy Seals to do that. ;-}

But a million fatwas is most certainly a sign of consensus of the religious leadership.

Activist: Egypt's leaders label female protesters 'prostitutes' - CNN.com

Couples in the West divorce for reasons of infidelity, mainly. The sura stipulates separation on a mere wish of the male; ie. the male wishes for a younger companion.

That ayat isn't saying this right, it is saying if you do this you can't have your dowry back no matter how big it is. Marriage in Islam is a contract. One of the things the contract stipulates is the amount of the dowry, which unlike medieval Christianity goes from the husband to the wife as her own property to dispose of as she wishes. Typically dowries are rather large, but the woman rarely actually collects. The reason for this is that it is her insurance against divorce, because in case of divorce that's what she gets to take out of the marriage. There is no 'community property' in Islam.

The NT, like the OT, stipulates divorce on the basis of unfaithfulness ONLY.

That simply isn't so. Why would it be? The penalty for adultery was death by stoning, making divorce unnecessary!

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Following a 7th century Arab man is not a problem with the Bible, neither does any comparable thing pose a problem for a Christian.

"the Man is the head of the Woman, as Christ is the head of the Church". Does that sentence ring any bells?
I grant you that Jesus was pretty much egalitarian as far as gender was concerned, and I'll also grant you that Paul was decidedly less of a misogynist than some of the pseudepigraphical epistles (and Church traditions that were to seize upon some isolated quotes from such letters) would suggest.

But at the end of the day, Christianity had slipped back into rampant patriarchy by the end of the 1st century, marginalizing and sometimes even actively demonizing the female followers of Christ. (Hence, the Catholic tradition that the Magdalen was a prostitute - an allegation that cannot be supported by scripture, and isn't shared by the EO Church.)

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Ladies and gentlemen, although I do respect the organic flow of discussion, may I beseech you not to turn this thread into a "Christianity vs. Islam"-flame war, and remind you that we are talking about sacred scriptures, NOT about whether there's more extremism in the Muslim world than elsewhere?

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

but it's in the stars themselves ...

Instead of just repeating some cryptic allusions to give yourself the sheen of wisdom, how about actually spelling out what you're talking about here?

"si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses"? If you had kept your silence, you would have stayed a philosopher?

It's easy to hide behind cryptic innuendo, and pretend to be intensely knowledgeable and insightful. But unless you manage to put some substance to those claims, it's all so much razzle dazzle, and doesn't really fool anybody.


FWIW, the motif of a sacrificial deity restoring cosmic order precedes Christianity by many centuries, and does not have its origin in the realm of Abrahamaic monotheism. Gerard Genette has raised an interesting hypothesis that explains the underlying psychological "logic" of ritual sacrifices and the way it is tied to the rise of the first cultures (cf. Genette, Violence and the Sacred). It's also quite easy to find analogies to the divine sacrifice in the natural world: plants must seemingly perish in the fall and lie dead in winter, but come spring, they rise again from the underworld, renewing the world. The sun "sets", travelling through the underworld, only to reappear each morning. Or, to include something that wasn't known to our ancestors, suns themselves are the matter generators of the universe, birthing the possibility of life in their death throes as they gradually consume themselves. We are star dust, all of us.

Nothing of that points to the exclusive validity that Christianity claims for itself, though. It merely seizes upon motifs that are a part of the common spiritual heritage of mankind.

 

[dazed]

Ladies and gentlemen, although I do respect the organic flow of discussion, may I beseech you not to turn this thread into a "Christianity vs. Islam"-flame war, and remind you that we are talking about sacred scriptures, NOT about whether there's more extremism in the Muslim world than elsewhere?

Let it go and enjoy the popcorns.

 

[dazed]

That too does not follow. The fact that Muhammad led military campaigns does not mean that Muslims can attack non-believers. These campaigns were fought to defend Muslims from non-believers, but as the Qur'an says, "God loveth not the aggressor." As far as Muhammad marrying a young wife, that doesn't necessarily follow either. Just because Mary had a baby at 15 doesn't mean you want your daughter to do that.

9/11 happened because Bin Laden wanted the Americans, non-believers, out of the holy Muslim land. Out of the 1 billion Muslims, how many would have the same thought as Bin Laden? How many of those Palestinians, screaming Allahu Akbar, would want to have a shot at the 72 virgins? The woman face of Palestinian Gov't, can't remember her name, had to calm them down and stop the tv cameras from recording the celebration.

I don't think there is a Christian wants their daughter has a baby at 15 but many Muslims want and have school aged girls as wives because Mohammed, pbuh, had one. Ayatollah Khomeni had one. A picture of the year, either last year or year before, disgusted the whole civilized world. A puzzling look of a grade 3 bride sitting next to an old but pious Muslim man.

 

[smaneck]

Do the majority of any religion live up to it's highest ideals?

My understanding of Islam has been informed by both modern Iranian and Turkish authors. Iranians like Dr Javid Nurbaksh, Muhammad Husayn Tabatabaei, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Sayyid Mujtaba Musavi Lari, Ayatollah Ja'far Sobhani,

I can't help but note that a number of the Iranians you list are currently ex-patriots. One of them, for instance headed the Nimatullahi order which has been viciously persecuted by the present regime. I don't know why you would admire Ayatolla Sobhani. Isn't he the one who favors strict and control of the press and withholding information from them?

Prior to rise of Khomeini the majority of mujtahids held that in the absence of the 12 Imam there could be no just government. The 'ulama who seized control of the Iranian government after the Revolution have certainly proven this to be the case.

But I'm getting off topic, here.

 

[smaneck]

Couples in the West divorce for reasons of infidelity, mainly

Actually, that's not true. Infidelity only accounts for about one fourth of divorces in the West.

 

[smaneck]

9/11 happened because Bin Laden wanted the Americans, non-believers, out of the holy Muslim land. Out of the 1 billion Muslims, how many would have the same thought as Bin Laden?

Lots of Arabs, not all of them Muslims, feel they are victims of foreign occupation.

How many of those Palestinians, screaming Allahu Akbar, would want to have a shot at the 72 virgins?

They would much rather get a shot at getting their country back.

The woman face of Palestinian Gov't, can't remember her name, had to calm them down and stop the tv cameras from recording the celebration.

Where were the TV cameras the next day when the children in all the schools in Palestine observed a moment of silence for the victims of 9-11.

but many Muslims want and have school aged girls as wives because Mohammed, pbuh, had one.

Very few do.

Ayatollah Khomeni had one.

Only if that Arab's account is true and we don't know that it is. Khomeini's wife was 16 when he married her. Young, but not outrageously so.

 

[Drunk On Love]

I don't know why you would admire Ayatolla Sobhani.

Not so much admiration as the fact that early in my exposure to Shi'ite teaching I was given a few translations of his books for free and they influenced my understanding of the faith. This obviously doesn't mean he is inerrant or that I know much of anything about him outside of the specific things he talked about in the books in question. The books themselves were good overall though. I learned a lot from them.

 

[Drunk On Love]

I would say I have great admiration for the first three I mentioned. I know a little more about them personally outside of the books they have written. The latter ones I know mostly through a number of books I received when I was inquiring into the faith. It's hard to find too many Shi'ite authors in English sadly. Shaykh Fadhlalla Haeri is a shi'ite who published a good number of books in English but he isn't Iranian or Turkish so I didn't include him.

 

[steve_bakr]

I have read several books by Seyyed Hossein Nasr and have found them to be very good.

BTW, he regards Komeini as someone who definitely went in the wrong direction in his later years.

 

[steve_bakr]

The vast majority of the Muslim world condemned the 9/11 attacks. I thought that was common knowledge. The Mosque in my area has a ceremony on behalf of the 9/11 victims every year.

 

[Drunk On Love]

He is a professor at George Washington University now.

 

[smaneck]

The vast majority of the Muslim world condemned the 9/11 attacks. I thought that was common knowledge. The Mosque in my area has a ceremony on behalf of the 9/11 victims every year.

Here in Mississippi, a Turkish Muslim group organized the 9-11 commemoration on behalf of the Mississippi Religious Leadership Council to which I belong.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

To bring this thread at least *somewhat* back on track:

Can we agree that Al Quaeda is distorting the Qur'an in a fashion that's similar to the way other holy scriptures have been distorted in order to justify atrocities? Crusaders wading knee-deep in blood as they slaughter non-christian civillians in Jerusalem, etc.*

*That's a description from an account written by the crusaders themselves, mind you.

 

[smaneck]

To bring this thread at least *somewhat* back on track:

Can we agree that Al Quaeda is distorting the Qur'an in a fashion that's similar to the way other holy scriptures have been distorted in order to justify atrocities? Crusaders wading knee-deep in blood as they slaughter non-christian civillians in Jerusalem, etc.*

You'll get no argument from me!

 

[steve_bakr]

To bring this thread at least *somewhat* back on track:

Can we agree that Al Quaeda is distorting the Qur'an in a fashion that's similar to the way other holy scriptures have been distorted in order to justify atrocities? Crusaders wading knee-deep in blood as they slaughter non-christian civillians in Jerusalem, etc.*

*That's a description from an account written by the crusaders themselves, mind you.

Agreed.